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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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May 14, 2007 - 01:52pm PT
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"I'm trying very hard to think of the Israeli "atrocities", but can't come up with any"
Cause you have had you head up your a*# toooooo long.
Israel, a Jewish state , commits attrocities on a daily basis in Gaza and the West Bank. And this has been going on since 1948.
By your logic fatty, the Jews "brought the Holocaust on themselves".
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jstan
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 02:02pm PT
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An interesting piece just out:
http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/byman/pollack20070507.htm
Whatever one’s politics, this analysis taken in the context of today’s newspapers makes a good case that nothing we would consider acceptable can come out of what you and I have created in Iraq. This is not an inconsiderable contribution.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 02:15pm PT
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HDDJ,
I think that you make good points. I wish that as a people we could all see that just because we point out things that are bad about something doesn't me we don't support things like Isreal. I think it is our responsibility to keep a tight rein on our government. The only way to do this is to recognize when it is out of line. Both in the Democratic part and in the Republicans party. Many Democrats I know worked within the party to change the Dems spending habits. I have always supported fiscal responsibility. I have not done much within the Democratic party because of health concerns, but lately I have been able to do more, such as write letters.
A surgeon often works to heal an infection and then occasionally to save the patient, she has to cut something out. I would Love to get rid or the problems in both the Republican party and within the Democrats. Most of it I think is do to giant egos which say don't work with anyone else, you know better then they do. It also comes down to a certain kind of callousness.
The greatest leaders that I have seen have been men where leadership is thrust apon them because of their high moral character. Today we a system that instead of rewarding character, rewards anal retentive actions and large egos.
The only solution that I can see is for us as a people to get out of the black and white thinking that holds us and start rewarding those people we feel have great character. We can also hold those people who willfully lead us into hell accountable for their actions instead of pardoning them after we show them the door.
This is the same problem that we have with our financial system in this country. Corperations have too much power and aren't held accountable for their actions. We have too many situations in this country where a person starts a corperation, gets wealthy then sell his stocks and hides from being held accountable for the mess the company makes. Then the company folds up shop and the country is left cleaning up the mess. This is disgusting. I don't know exactly what the fix is, but I wish that our best minds would get to work on fixing this and fixing our tax system that is so convoluted that it rewards the wealthy who can afford a tax accountant.
My rant for the day. Sorry to get off topic. I think that you are correct Jstan. There is no easy or good way out of the mess in Iraq. If we stay, we may very well have to be there for 40 years, bleeding money and lives with a high chance that we will accomplish nothing but bankrupting ourselves. Which most people forget is ultimately what brought down the Russian empire. If we leave, then the door is now wide open for Iraq to devolve even further into hell. Yet Vietnam stablilized after we left, even though many including Kissinger thought it wouldn't. In fact, Kissinger is one of those who advised George to "Stay the Course". Kissinger couldn't see the animosity we created in Vietnam and he can't see the animosity we are creating in Iraq. I consider him to be a fool.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 14, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 02:39pm PT
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So that it doesn't get lost, I think that I will repost your question Gary. I might keep posting it until Fatty and/or Chaz answer.
"Here's a question for Chaz and fattrad, or any neocon "warrior" to answer. It has been asked before on several occasions, and ignored each time.
How does invading the most secular country in the middle-east and handing control of that nation over to Iranian-backed Shias make the USA safer from Muslim extremists?
Thank you for your time."
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 14, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
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fattrad: I'll be the first to admit that there were numerous cross border assaults from both sides 1950-1967. Care to list any Arab ones?
No point in that. There are too many innocent dead on both sides. Just nice to hear you admit the Israelis are not pure as the driven snow.
BTW, any answer to my question?
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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May 14, 2007 - 04:34pm PT
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"Do you read these before you post them?"
Of course.
The report was just released.
Do you read all of the post I put up?
Obviously not.
Of course none of the actons committed by Israel or the IDF are attrocities to you.
But to Palestinians they are.
Edit:
"Want me to post links of blown up buses or restaurants?"
Please, post the links that point this out, allong with the dates the original story ran.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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May 14, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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Crowley,
Good find!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 14, 2007 - 05:37pm PT
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It comes down to a subjective viewpoint. One neocon's "justified military action to suppress violent extremsists" is someone else's "violent attrocity designed to further oppress Palestinian independence and comfort hard-liners within the Israeli govt."
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 05:41pm PT
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Give Fatty a break. In his mind its not an atrocity if it is an act done in retaliation. In Fatties mind everything the Isrealis do is in retaliation for something done to them and therefore anything goes. Which creates a neverending cycle of violence.
Edit: Hey HDDJ, it looks like you said it better then me. We were answering at the same time but you are quicker then I am.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 05:50pm PT
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I know meaty...I was being in part facetious and in part serious. I think Fatty really does think that the only thing the Isrealis do is in retaliation for something done to them. He just doesn't see how it continues the circle of violence and he doesn't see how vicious they are in prosecuting their defense.
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monolith
Trad climber
Albany,CA
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May 14, 2007 - 05:51pm PT
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Yes, that's the rational way when you have helicopters.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 05:56pm PT
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Yes caughinside, but they do things like bulldoze the homes of family members even if the family does not approve of their families actions. They often get this wrong and bulldoze whole blocks of houses. It would be as if your brother got caught dealing drugs and our government took your house. It would piss you off and it isn't even remotely fair. Things are very ugly in the gaza strip and its not all the palistinians doing.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 06:11pm PT
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Caught, Watch the documentary "Death in Gaza". It is very poignant and shows the atrocities being done there. It is about children growing up in the gaza strip with families who have no choice. The journalist making it was killed by an Isreali sniper before he could make the second part which was to be about the difficulties of being a child in Isreal. Neither side is any longer innocent and at some point one side or the other has to man up and just stop using violence to stop violence.
As long as the Isrealis response is so unbalanced, then aggression will continue against them. If they stopped, then yes they would probably continue to suffer rocket attacks for a time, but then I believe the world would revolt and help set up a legitimate Palistine which would go a long way towards making peace in that region.
Would the peace be perfect? No....I don't know anyplace on this planet with perfect peace. But I do think things would get better.
The Isrealis tried this for a time and it ended up failing. The deal for Palistine was refused. Yet they came close and I think that if they had persisted, then the deal would have eventually gone through. Instead, they voted in a hardliner and now they have a bigger mess.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 14, 2007 - 06:16pm PT
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Both sides are trying to prosecute a war, so more war they get.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 06:22pm PT
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Edit: "But if you look at who the palestinians elect, it is easy to see why the cycle of violence continues"
Just like if you watch who the Isrealis or the U.S. elects, they also continue the violence. At some point someone has to be the bigger man and be willing to try something besides violence. This will require great strength of Character. Its just that right now most people seems to want revenge through violence, including Americans. This will only continue the violence.
In this whole thing, Palistine is the weakest entity, yet we require it to show the most strength.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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May 14, 2007 - 06:22pm PT
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Caughtinside,
"well sorry. As I see it, the goal of palestinian militants is to kill jews. any jew will do. The goal of the israelis at least seems to be to kill the palestinians responsible for the violence."
I can see how you can come to this conclusion but I feel you are "dead" wrong.
If this was a "fair" fight where each side had access to the same fighting means, do you think Palestinians would be dropping suicide bombs in markets? Heck no, they would be going after the top. The Israelis "go for the top" and heavy civilian casualties occur. After going after the top, the relatives of the person targeted are either killed themselves or their home bulldozed.
It is an endless stupid cycle because both sides feel their acts are "justified".
"But maybe I am the only one who sees the difference."
Fatty sees your difference.
"fighting implies some kind of engagement. I don't see the engagement on a bus carrying civilians to work. "
And I don't see the engagement when a person's home is bulldozed for something that a relative did several weeks prior.
Edit:
"But if you look at who the palestinians elect, it is easy to see why the cycle of violence continues."
Quit looking at "who" when you shuld look at "why" the Palestinian people elected the people they did. And no it is not because they want their leaders to get into full scale war with Israel....
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John Moosie
climber
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May 14, 2007 - 06:50pm PT
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Good post Crowley
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 14, 2007 - 07:12pm PT
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Israeli innocence ends with the settlements which violate UN resolutions and international law. Politically, Israeli leaders demand to keep the settlements and expand Israeli land into occupied areas permanently.
To do that, they are instituting policies to force more and more Palestinians from their homes with oppressive walls, checkpoints, ID Cards, rules and land confiscations. The Palestinians aren't fooled. If a true is declared, Israel finds a quiet way to provoke more violence so they'll have the excuse to attack more and create harsher conditions.
Because they want the land and not the folks on it. It's not an honest desire for peace at all. The more you study it, the more it's crystal clear. The Israeli government policy has no, zero, aim at making peace with the Palestinians until their land is so unviable and unlivable, that after peace their villages will wither and disappear, or they'll be crowded into the open air prison of Gaza. It's aparttheid, plain and simple.
peace
karl
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