Climbing on Mt. Baldy

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zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 20, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
Fat Dad. As I recall you're a lawyer. Here's one for you to start with.

Judge rules in favor of public access, recreation on Weber River

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=34196859
http://www.norcalwaterfowl.com/forummisc/CANavigableWaterLaws.pdf
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jun 20, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jun 20, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
cgk,
Thanks for the cites. As nice as it would be to restore access to the boulders, I understand your concerns. Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like the boulders aren't even on your property. Do know the other land owners and have any idea of whether they'd be open to discussions about access? If their primary concern is privacy, that's hard to work around; if it's liability, that's an easily addressed issue.
shiro16

climber
Jun 21, 2015 - 01:25am PT
Not quite on topic, but to Fat Dad.

Yes, Black Star Canyon road. I met the loveliest of people out there who advised me to promptly turn around because it was "time to go".

You used 'lived' like this is a past tense thing. Is it a little more 'open' out there these days?

I'm sure I could take another stroll out there and find out for myself the right way. My last trip was so pleasant that this is an item I think is OK to ask for beta for on the internet.

Thanks.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jun 21, 2015 - 12:02pm PT

Back in the days when problems were tall and the shorts, not so much…
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jun 21, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
In the past, there was even a parcourse that extended below the school and there was even a station along the stream bed between B Boulder and Cuco. Later, signs went up and it was clear that someone was claiming ownership of areas that weren't related to the any identifiable private property, but were intended merely to restrict access to the creek.

Believe me, I carted out many a trash bag of junk and we used to make a point of cleaning up nearly every visit. I once pointed this out during a "hassle" session, and it seemed to make no difference to the supposed owner.

I'd like to see a proper survey detailing the actual bounds of land ownership. I think there have been a few liberties taken.

It is unfortunate that the land owners fought tooth and nail to exclude Baldy Canyon, and the mountains east of there, from inclusion in the San Gabriel National Monument.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jun 21, 2015 - 03:27pm PT
I haven't been to Black Star Canyon for 20 yrs., so I don't know what ever happened to the folks living back there. They were not unreasonable the couple of times I ran into them. Just a dude in his pickup, who didn't ask that I turn around (though he probably hoped I would), just advise me that I was on private property. I did raise the issue that there were several guidebooks that describe the area but never mention it being private property. He just said it was the subject of a lawsuit and left it at that.

Back to Baldy though, I'm all for opening a discussion that might lead to working with the property owners to discuss access on terms they're comfortable with. cgk seems reasonable, but I have no idea how the other adjacent owners might be. If they went to the hassle of posting signage, I wonder how receptive they'll be.
Fogarty

climber
BITD
Jun 21, 2015 - 07:56pm PT
I spent the summer of 1978 with my best friend and his want to be a Monk mom across the street from the Zen Center. great bouldering right down the creek from there. We also had great fun on the slab to the right of Magnesia Falls. The Baldy Bowl boulder that Largo talks about was a fun one.

Cheers, MF
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 23, 2015 - 09:40am PT
California Standard: State Constitutional Right, Recreational Standard, and Public Trust Easements

“The public's right of access to navigable streams is a constitutional right.” (People ex rel. Younger v. County of El Dorado (3d Dist. 1979) 96 Cal.App.3d
403, 406 [157 Cal.Rptr. 815, 817]) citing California Const., art. X, s. 4 and Marks v. Whitney ((1971) 6 Cal.3d 251, 98 Cal.Rptr. 790, 491 P.2d 374.) The
California Constitution states: “ No individual, partnership, or corporation, claiming or possessing the frontage or tidal lands of a harbor, bay, inlet,
estuary, or other navigable water in this State, shall be permitted to exclude the right of way to such water whenever it is required for any public purpose,
nor to destroy or obstruct the free navigation of such water; and the Legislature shall enact such laws as will give the most liberal construction to this
provision, so that access to the navigable waters of this State shall be always attainable for the people thereof.” (Cal. Const., art. X, s. 4.) Case law
applying this constitutional provision confirms the public right of passage, in a lawful manner, over waters usable only for small-craft recreational boating,
irrespective of the ownership of the water bed. (Pacific Gas & Electric Co. v. Superior Court (1983) 145 Cal.App.3d 253, 258 [193 Cal.Rptr. 336];
Lechuza Villas West v. California Coastal Commission (1997) 60 Cal.App.4th 218, 244 [70 Cal.Rptr.2d 399], cert. denied 525 U.S. 868.)
“Members of the public have the right to navigate and to exercise the incidents of navigation in a lawful manner at any point below high water mark on
waters of this state which are capable of being navigated by oar or motor propelled small craft.” (People ex rel. Baker v. Mack (3d Dist.1971) 19
Cal.App.3d 1040, 1050 [97 Cal.Rptr. 448, 454].) This includes waterways capable of being navigated only by kayak. (People v. Sweetser (5P
thP Dist.
1977) 72 Cal.App.3d 278, 283 [140 Cal.Rptr. 82].) Commercial use of a waterway is not required as “a waterway usable only for pleasure boating is
nevertheless a navigable waterway and protected by the public trust.” (National Audubon Society v. Superior Court (1983) 33 Cal.3d 419, 435 n.17 [189
Cal.Rptr. 346, 658 P.2d 709].) citing People ex rel. Younger v. County of El Dorado (3d Dist. 1979) 96 Cal.App.3d 403 [157 Cal.Rptr. 815, 817] and
People ex rel. Baker v. Mack (3d Dist.1971) 19 Cal.App.3d 1040 [97 Cal.Rptr. 448, 454].)
There are limits to what waterways can be considered legally navigable under the State public trust and navigational easement standards. Though a
waterway need not be floatable year-round for it to be navigable, but it must be for more than a few days in the rainy season and more than infrequent or
brief periods of high or flood waters (Hitching v. Del Rio Woods Recreation & Parks District (1P
stP Dist. 1976) 55 Cal.App.3d 560, 569-570 [127 Cal.Rptr.
830].) However, the public may use long-term flood and overflow waters if they are navigable. (Bohn v. Albertson (1951) 107 Cal.App.2d 738). Lands
flooded by navigable waters are subject to the public’s right to fish and pass over them. (City of Berkeley v. Superior Court (1980) 26 Cal.3d 515, 546
[162 Cal. Rptr. 327, 606P.2d 362].)
The State of California holds title to the navigable waterways and the land beneath them within its borders as a trustee for the public. (Gaf v. San Diego
Unified Port Dist. (1992) 7 Cal.App.4th 1224, 1228 [9 Cal.Rptr2d 530]; Colberg Inc. v. State of California ex rel. Dept. of Public Wks. (1967) 67 Cal.2d
408, 416 [62 Cal.Rptr. 401, 432 P.2d 3].) Public trust easements are traditionally defined in terms of navigation, commerce and fisheries. They have
been held to include the right to fish, hunt, bathe, swim, to use for boating and general recreation purposes the navigable waters of the state, and to use
the bottom of the navigable waters for anchoring, standing, or other purposes. (Marks v. Whitney (1971) 6 Cal.3d 251, 259 [491 P.2d 374, 380, 98
Cal.Rptr. 790, 796].); Bohn v. Albertson (1951) 107 Cal.App.2d 738, [238 P.2d 128]; Forestier v. Johnson (1912) 164 Cal. 24, [127 P. 156].) “In this
state the public has a right to use for boating, swimming, fishing, hunting and all other recreation purposes, any part of a river that can be navigated by
small recreational or pleasure boats, even though the river bed is privately owned.” (People v. Sweetser (5P
thP Dist. 1977) 72 Cal.App.3d 278, 283 [140
Cal.Rptr. 82].)
“It is well settled that the state has fee title to such portion of any navigable river within its boundaries as lies beneath the low-water mark. It is equally
well established that although abutting landowners own the land between high- and low-water marks, their ownership is subject to a public trust for T
California Standard: State Constitutional Right, Recreational Standard, and Public Trust Easements (cont’d)
purposes such as navigation, fishing, and recreation.” (Bess v. County of Humboldt (1992) 3 Cal.App.4P
thP 1544, 1549 [5 Cal.Rptr 2d 399]; State v.
Superior Court (Lyon) (1981) 29 Cal.3d 210, 226-233 [625 P.2d 239, 172 Cal.Rptr. 696], cert. denied, 454 U.S. 865). The public clearly has the right to
use the bed of a waterway navigable under State standards to its high mark even at times of low water. The permissible range of public uses is broader
than navigation, commerce, and fishing from the water and includes the right to hunt, bathe or swim from the shore below the mean high water mark.
The public’s rights are not confined to the waters alone. Lyon, at 229-230.
Regardless of the ownership of the bed of a navigable waterway, be it State property or privately owned, the public has the right to use the bed of the
waterway up to the mean high water mark for purposes such as navigation, fishing, and recreation.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jun 23, 2015 - 11:04am PT
^^^ Now we just need to find some hot-shot kayaking dudes that can run that stream from the Zen Center down to the dam. Indeed, there are a few places where you could float your boat. Please post your successes on YouTube.
zBrown

Ice climber
Jun 23, 2015 - 11:13am PT

I don't especially care for the soundtrack.

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Greg Distaso

climber
La Verne,ca
Jun 28, 2015 - 09:12am PT
Great thread! Pretty cool to check out crags that are off the beaten path. These were up Azusa canyon before crystal lake. I guess that is why they call it adventure climbing.
Messages 41 - 52 of total 52 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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