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Pappy
Trad climber
Atlanta
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Matt said: pappy-
"if you have no interest in following along then you ought not to chime in at the end, implying that "there is nothing to see here". (IMO it makes you look foolish)
"i am glad you won't take my word for it, saves me time in explaining it to you.
as to the "scandal" itself- the prosecutor's name is patrick fitzgerald. google that in creative ways and you can read his explanation (given at the press conference where he anounced the indictments) as to why there are perjury charges but no other charges- it's the perjury and obstruction that prevents the government from making the charge it wants to investigate- but in his reasoned explaination, the cause of justice is served by convicting on the perjury charge, and that fundamentally is the reason perjury a felony in our legal system. (clear enough?)"
Actually, I do kinda know how Google works, and I might kinda be a little more aware than let on. I try to be honest about what I don't know and have a little humility about what I do 'know', recognizing that if you weren't in the room or don't have access to primary sources then you only really know what someone tells you happened. I think that you and AC, 'the single cell life form', might consider adopting this perspective. As Twain said (but I have to paraphrase, as I don't remember the exact quote) 'it ain't what you don't know that's dangerous, it's what you do know that just ain't so.'
As to Libby's 'perjury', that has dick all to do with the original allegation, as everyone involved has admitted that Armitage 'leaked' Plame (I'm still trying to figure out the motive, as I don't think anyone here, even you, thinks that this somehow discredited Wilson. That is a really byzantine interpretation, and I'm guessing you and AC will have to look up Byzantine) and I can deduce that it is likely that Libby wasn't even aware of this.
I do appreciate how you avoided addressing my 'outing' of the illogic of your original post. Rope a dope forever.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
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dood- you are as transparent as air
"this is the first I've heard that he lied to a grand jury"
that's from the (apparently more interesting to you than to others?) post of yours upthread, i guess that's the same post with some sort of criticism that i supposedly failed to address? gee whiz, well i wonder why i wrote you off? that's a tougfh one fer sure, i musta been duckin you! (and your ingenious tactics of engagement, of course)
and you are implying that it's me who is pulling a rope a dope?
here's a question:
what comes after "dip"?
i'll give you a hint:
point out your index finger, and then stick it up into the bottom of your chin (and there is you answer, "...on a stick :)
as for the mysteryous motive that you can't seem to figure out, allow me to enlighten you on several possibilities (none of which you will consider):
1) if armitage leaked classified info prior to someone else leaking the same classified info, are you thinking that the 2nd leak is then not a crime?
(edit- that seems to be a right wing appologists idea, that fitzpatrick ought to have stopped the investigation when armitage became know as one source. i actually do not know the legal details here, but it seems to me that one leak of classified info does not legally declassify said info, and the fact that those in the office of the VPotUSA are planning to, and acting on plans to leak said info would still be of interest to a federal prosecutor, would it not? and even if they could claim that either bush or cheney had selectively declassified said info in advance of the intentional leaking of that info, they would then have had to openly defend the fact that they declassified the identity of an active covert agent, in order to use that identity to attempt (and a weak attempt at that) to discredit a vocal war critic, a war critic whose information was spot on, while theirs was horribly flawed and it's selection (in the raw form, another issue all together but also one that the VP's office was highly responsible for) was policy driven, rather than fact or analisys based. /edit)
2) if testimony in the public record (either to federal investigators or to a grand jury, or to the libby trial jury for that matter) clearly showed that cheney et.al. were occupied w/ smothering the newly public information that joe wilson had explored this yellow cake uranium connection and the administration had reason to believe it was false when "the 16 words" were included in the state of the union address, how might that color public understanding of the administration's sales job wrt the war in iraq?
3) if these as#@&%es either knew or should have known that v.plame was covert and working on WMD proliferation (in iran, as it turned out!), and it could be demonstrated via testimony in the public record that they intentionally facilitated her "outing" in a planned "smear campaign", which itself was a response to information that they knowingly disregarded (for no other reason that they didn't want to hear it), but that information in fact turned out to be perfectly accurate, how would that impact the administration's image wrt national security issues?
(note: that one's a trick question- people like you, with their heads buried so deeply (draw your own picture), would have no reason to think differently of this (or any other republican?) administration.
scooter libby is a high priced washington dc lawyer, known for his preparation and his thouroughness. the idea that he just forgot and then remembered and then forgot again, all in a few days, just doesn't hold water.
the issue is not whether or not he outed valerie plame, he was convicter of 4 felonies, he knew he was lying when he lied, repeatedly, to investigators and to the grand jury, and he opted not to bother to lie to the trial jury.
the only reasonable conclusion is that he felt/reasoned that perjury and obstruction charges were the lesser of 2 evils.
now get over it, and quit listening to rush and sean, they are full of crap.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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The Clinton skeletons all got 100 times the air time they ever deserved. The Clintons ran OUT of skeletons which is why the nut jobs started making up things about murders and whatnot. Even with Whitewater which cost more money and took more time and was actually partisan could only serve to make Clinton's life miserable and finally put him in a position where he chose to lie about a totally unrelated personal matter.
As for Libby, if his lying had "dick all to do with the original charges" then why was he lying to begin with? If there was nothing to cover up, and there was no cover up then why lie or obstruct? You could hardly paint Fitzpatrick as desperate to bring SOME sort of charges, whatever he could conjure up, against SOMEbody. If the charges weren't material then why would he have bothered?
The obvious answer is that the White House knew it had done something if not legally wrong, then certainly ethically wrong and they were desperately trying to keep the thing on wraps. Fitzpatricks investigation served to show only that there was not a clear *enough* case to *prove* legal wrongdoing, not that there was nothing wrong.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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HaHa, that's awesome Matt. That link above is to a news item about Newt Gingrich admitting that he was carrying on an affair while he was dogging Clinton over his affair. The following quote should look familiar by now, haven't all the scumbags uttered these very words?:
"There were times when I was praying and when I felt I was doing things that were wrong. [WB edit: like when I had her on her stomach and was using that bathroom plunger on her. I can still hear the screams.] But I was still doing them," he said in the interview. "I look back on those as periods of weakness and periods that I'm ... not proud of."
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dirtbag
climber
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I think you guys expect too much from Pappy. A few months ago he was arguing about how the South's position in the Civil War was right. Poor guy's not too terribly bright.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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The sad thing about the Newt Gingrich thing is that it isn't news. Anyone who payed attention knew this was happening, and its been reported many times in the past. Glad he finally fessed up to it....maybe considering throwing in the presidential towel since McCain is hurting so badly?
And hours of media slander Fatty? HOURS?!?! All those hours combined probably equaled decades.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Mar 10, 2007 - 10:54pm PT
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Ah, yes, Crowley DOES have a way with the ladies!
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 13, 2007 - 03:13pm PT
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did we resolve this finally?
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