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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"It's a waste of time for me anyways...since some of you obviously know so much about everything.
Werner"
Geez, Werner - you'd think you'd be used to that sort of stuff around here. There are some people here who even claim to know things about climbing...
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WBraun
climber
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I was refering to the topic about this thread only.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno
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"Dave, this world is a bad place and there are bad people in it. You need to wake up and realize that, instead of being in denial about the possibility...."
Actually, I thought the entire world was like Boulder. ;) You make Jakarta sound like a warm, fuzzy, happy place. Hmmm. you carry a gun, other people use crack. Whatever floats yer boat. I've done just fine with my Spyderco.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"Hmmm. you carry a gun, other people use crack. Whatever floats yer boat."
I think it is rather obvious from that silly statement which one of us is the crack user.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Werner...if any dumbass was stupid enough to fire a high powered rifle at that guy, there is no telling where the bullets would end up, after they bounce off the rocks.
Most anytime there is an actual shootout...the cops always fire off hundreds of rounds! (right Jody?)
Rangers don't need M-16's! In the scenerio you describe, call in SWAT, with a sniper rifle.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"Most anytime there is an actual shootout...the cops always fire off hundreds of rounds! (right Jody?) "
Actually, no. The dramatic shootouts that you hear about where they are running gun battles are very rare. Most shootouts are a clip or less.
"Rangers don't need M-16's! In the scenerio you describe, call in SWAT, with a sniper rifle."
Okay, I am trying to understand here. You don't want rangers to have rifles because they don't need them. yet you now say that the situation Werner described calls for a SWAT team. What SWAT team? A SWAT team made up of rangers with rifles? There often isn't time to assemble a SWAT team and get it to the scene. It is far more expeditious to already have patrol personnel trained in the use of the higly accurate AR-15 that can be on the scene in minutes as opposed to hours to hopefully minimize the impact of the incident on the park.
What, exactly, do you fear about LE rangers having AR-15's? I am not sure where you are coming from? The problem with only having shotguns and handguns is that the penetrating power sucks. If you have a nutcase behind a car engaging you, you want something that will penetrate the car door at the very least...I am having real trouble understanding the logic behind not trusting LE rangers with weapons...Are you afraid of the rangers or the dirtbag? You people confuse the heck out of me...
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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A SWAT team from a local city. This protocal could be in place, and a sniper team could be in position in a short period of time. One shot vs. numerous shots from less trained individuals.
I would be ok with one, two rangers FULLY trained in the use of AR 15's, but leave them in storage!
I disagree with you Jody on the number of rounds in an actual "shootout" (but you wouldn't surprise me if you had some stats) and five rangers with five round shotguns...who really is going to need penetrating power? (but you are right,the penetrating power does suck)...
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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A local city...Yosemite...Fresno...Two hours response after they assemble. Three hours total...not quick enough for me. Leave the ARs in storage? Why? You either trust them or you don't. Not every situation can be planned for. Some times things just happen. Where would you store them? Headquarters? A situation goes down at Crane Flat or Tuolomne...What good would the AR at headquarters do you? An AR-15 in every patrol car and rangers trained to use them is a good thing. I volunteer, I will train them myself.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"The punks don't get up to Crane Flat."
Aha! But they drive right past Crane Flat on the way to their digs in Merced, etc.
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RB
Social climber
Pasadena, CA
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Rangers have been carrying AR-15's upright in their patrol vehicles since 1991. The fact of the matter is, more rangers have been killed in the line of duty (feloniously by gunfire)in the past five years, than most major metropolitan police departments in this country. The NPS has had 3 rangers killed since 1998 and there have been two ranger involved shootings in the past two months (Redwood N.P. and Coronado) These are unfortunate statistics. Interestingly enough, the LAPD didn't even carry AR-15's in their patrol cars until the Hollywood shooting at the Bank of America in 1998. Now, every unit has them. Unfortunately, many injuries could have been prevented had the LAPD had the proper firepower. Instead, the LAPD administrators waited until something like that happened. In 1988, the visitor center at Old Faithful was taken over by an armed gunman who held 13 people hostage for 8 hours.
3-4 million visitors per year in Yosemite, and you don't think there is a possibility of something like that happening? Let's say it did for a second. Wouldn't you prefer that the responding rangers at least be properly equipped and trained? You're right, the chances of it happening are not high, but have no illusion, it could happen.
The nation's rangers are more likely to be assaulted than any other federal law-enforcement officers, according to Justice Department statistics. In 2000, there were 99 assaults on National Park Service officers, compared with 55 on Customs agents, 55 on Drug Enforcement Administration agents and 25 on FBI agents.
Associated Press
Washington, D.C. - Patrolling federal lands is becoming more and more dangerous, a group tracking attacks on the officers said Wednesday, citing two park rangers killed in the line of duty in 2002 and an overall increase in threats and violence.
A list of incidents last year includes a park ranger killed along the Mexican border, officers who were shot at by a marijuana farmer, a run-in with a chainsaw-wielding tree poacher, and a slew of threats and intimidation.
"These aren't just low-level arguments that escalated. These are people who are willing to enact pretty hard-core violence," said Eric Wingerter, national field director for the group Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility.
"A number of these incidents stem from a growing, simmering anti-government sentiment that is particularly growing in the West," he said.
Noting that park rangers are 12 times more likely to be killed or injured as a result of an assault than FBI agents, Randall Kendrick, the Lodge’s Executive Director, contends that the Park Service has failed to provide adequate staffing to prevent further violence. “This agency refuses to admit that times have changed, even though study after study has pointed out the obsolete and dangerous practices of the National Park Service,” Kendrick stated.
It's been nice to see this site having thoughtful, non-ranger bashing conversations. It would also be nice to see it continue.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Radical... dude, you okay? Have a bad day? Kids keep interrupting you and your wife or something?
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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P.S. If you have a specific instance where a ranger was out of line, lets hear it. Comments like "90% are scum" just knocks the poster off the credibility chart and makes him sound like a whiney child.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"Wife and kids are in Texas on vacation.."
Aha! I knew you were suffering from SRH! Your wife isn't even around.
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Voice of Reason
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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O.K., my turm to vent.
I'm sick of climbers whining like babies about the Rangers. Squatting in Camp 4 is a game and the ones who don't play the game and get caught by the Rangers doing something stupid deserve what they get.
"90% of Rangers are a waste of skin" Radical?
Who do you think rebolts a good portion of your favorite routes?
Who risks thier own lives rescuing climbers of all abilities when they get into trouble?
That's right the Rangers do. As for needing fire power, Werner was right, there is stuff going on here that the public knows nothing about..... because the Rangers are doing thier jobs.
This winter rangers had to deal with a 300lb psycho high on meth with a knife, a rape was reported last summer, and all knids of other nefarious doings. So if you think the rangers are being a little hard on you just remember the last call they were on may have been somehting like those I mentioned above. If you play it cool and are HONEST most of the time you'll get no grief.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"If there's a rationale for LEOs to be well armed in National Parks, there's a rational for the citizens to be well armed as well... "
I agree 100% If you'll notice my post above...I said I think everybody should possess an AR-15. Since this was specifically addressing the rangers, I tried to keep my comments to that point. However, I could go on for days about the disarmament of the citizenry in this country being responsible for creating millions of victims.
Dude, I would feel sorry for you having to live in New York, except for I live in California so I can't really talk!LOL!
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Rage Against The Machine............
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Who has the worst senators?
Schumer and Clinton...
Feinstein and Boxer...
Geez, both of us are screwed!
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jody, I completely agree with you about the guns.
Maybe they carry them to pick climbers off of El Cap?
I can just see it:
"Hey man, I just got one off of pitch 26 of the Nose! I think that's a record!"
:)
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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The really good marksmen use them to chop bolts from a distance...
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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