Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
|
|
I think it's good that the bolt was removed. No disrespect to Clint, I just don't agree that it should have been added.
Imagine if Nanook had added the bolt in the same spot and defended it with the same reasoning (there used to be a piton there 40 years ago). Would a single person on this forum have defended the retrobolt?
I also think Jim clipping the bolt on the way up is irrelevant. Being able to skip a bolt isn't what justifies chopping it. A bolt being added to an established climb decades after some piton went missing is what justifies chopping it.
|
|
Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
|
|
^^ if woot boy had articulated his reasoning in the same way as Clint did, here where I would read it I'd have had no problem even though I think the dude is a nutjob.
(no disrespect to nutjob:)
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
|
|
Interesting how everyone debates what happens to someone else's route. Who knows when or what the FA party's done/thought since their creation. No disrespect to all of our intent but just maybe they care about what happens to their route. The only law, tenet, comminality etc. that's ever come out of this endless debate is that the FA should have ultimate input into what becomes of the route. Especially important when restoration (from original thread wording) is involved which is what sparked this and other stupid torper messes. I'm sure Clint was trying to interpret the intent of the FA party as you all are.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
You know, I’m preplexed. What is this ST preoccupation with all things Yosemite? I know where the Valley fits in climbing history. Hell, it was the major formative venue in my climbing life. But to have all of these posts on two threads by the same OP concerning a climb that would be obscure and neglected even in a climbing backwater has me puzzled....It’s myopic.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
And narcissistic.
BTW, thank you for Mons Obscurum, Jim.
|
|
BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
|
|
Jim,
for a number of climbers this was their first 5.10 lead so maybe that makes it worthy of discussion.
|
|
Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
|
|
Mr. Hornibrook,
I kinda thought you were a jerk with your put down of Me and Stu for bouldering with pads this summer. Thanks for setting the record straight.
Roger Brown
|
|
tallguy
Trad climber
tacoma
|
|
In Clint I trust. Case closed.
|
|
ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
|
|
haha nice one Roger!
good example
|
|
Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
|
|
What the great Maxine's Wall debate is not on the radar in Chamonix?
We used to climb the "Wall" in EB's and it seemed adequately protected back in '79-'80. I don't recall the fixed pin.
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
|
|
DMT......you've been through this before and this is yet another chapter in the ongoing debate of who decides. You see the larger picture and ask good questions. I think the last go round you were in the minority in that most agreed that no-one owns the rock but perhaps the idea of a route and that the majority felt that the original intent be upheld. But perhaps this is changing? Clint's last post seems to suggest that even he is questioning the replacement of protection in keeping with the original historic intent because, perhaps the community excepts what changes have occured.
Ofcourse physical and communal aspects can change and the original intent changes along with it. Sloan's name keeps reccuring because he obviously disregards anyones ownership or intent. And I question my own ownership of trails I may break through stone. I'm not sure of what I'd do if they were altered or even erased. So I ask you: What is a route?
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
Maxine’s is OK. It seemed to protect OK. Not really significant.
Why is it on anybody’s radar?
You guys need to get laid....
...and relax....
...and maybe go climbing.
|
|
Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
|
|
Wasn't pitch one of Maxine's wall actually first done on aid? That means the fixed pin was probably left over from the original aid ascent (as were the bolts). I see from the Sierra Club Roper green guide (1971) that the first pitch is listed as 5.7 A3 or 5.10. And the first ascentionists were Les Wilson and Al Macdonald in March 1962. The yellow Meyers Yosemite Guide (1982) states that the late Pete Livesey and Andreas Mauer freed the whole route in 1973. Which brings up the question: Who exactly freed the first pitch of Maxine's? It must have been freed sometime between 1962 and 1971 but by whom? Murky.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
Well said DMT.
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
|
|
I don't know. Clint is definitely The Man. Even Werner says so. But I'm going with the underdog here only because so very few take the effort to resist the tide, that of removing the spice from climbing. Bolt choppers will always be in the minority so no need to worry. Thousands of bolts going in every day compared to a few removed each year.
He may be a doosh but he brought it out in the open and "checked" the current tide.
Arne
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
|
|
Replacing bolts is a lot of hard work. And only a very few have put in the time and have replaced most of Yosemite. Most bolt replacers consult guide books and the community as replacement guide. It's easy for most of you to sit here and make proclamations. Sure the guy took action but it's easy to take action on a single bolt or even a single route. You don't know Ionlyski what was where and few us does. Clint and Roger do the best they can to stick to what was and not get caught up in all the bullsh#t. Which in the end most of this is. In this case, it sounds like both might be right. There was protection. A bolt was not ADDED as the OP suggests but pro REPLACED that once existed. However, that pro has been gone for years and climbed since and thus the change accepted. So it appears both parties may be right however the remover could have done a much better job of making his point. One bolt isn't a big deal if your not putting in the hard work.
Edit: I agree in part Warbler but rising populations can change things. Look at surfing. There used to be a fairly strict code of ethics there as well but the surfing population exploded and the "rules" no longer exist. Although most new route activity does seem to support that "routes" are original paths and should be respected as to there intent. As more and more climbers come to the Valley, and the commodity more scarce, only time will tell.
Edit2: DMT....Agree mightely with the respect. This is a tricky one. In this case I would say leave it be but much disrespect was shown. Hard not to factor that in.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
You guys have gone WAY beyond the OP's attention span and level of comprehension - that was just proven.
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
|
|
You don't know Ionlyski what was where and few us does.
Exactly, I'm not weighing in on right/wrong cuz I don't know squat. Only making white noise like most others here and "rooting" for the A team or the B team.
Clint and Jim are the only ones making any effort and Clint has clearly shown a dedicated ongoing effort, one of quality. He's a class act. I loved his line "can I have my hanger back"?
So, score 1 for the choppers. It'll probably go back in anyway.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
All I can think of looking at this thread are all the poor little electrons that have been made homeless by the intardnet hand wringing over one crummy bolt. I hear it’s all people can talk about in Yemen lately.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!