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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:02pm PT
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This is so tragic. That harness probably was at the near failure mode for many rappels. Single point failure.
If it happened to one harness it probably will happen to another.
We do not know what type?
JDF
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:11pm PT
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Juan-
Harness brand would be interesting, but not relevant.
The belay loops and harnesses are made of webbing (I know there are some with steel loops-this presents its own set of issues). There are not that many mills in the world making the webbing being used to mAKe our harnesses.
Problem is more likely to be us the climbers than the mill or the factory (I know a factory that bar tached a belay loop with 69 thread instead of 138 would be in error).
Anyway, I see it as the responsibilty of the enduser to check this stuff. Hell I chose to test some of my gear that was outside of recent recall specs myself. Why not, it's my life.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:11pm PT
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Russ: I remember that duct-tape trick that Black Diamond did. I think it was to quell the same fear that Kate has about the Petzl belay loop only having two bar-tacks. I climb on that same Petzl harness.
As I said, I think we may be jumping to a lot of conclusions too fast and I will ASSume that Juan is just trolling again.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
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Kate, The straight stitching used to layer these loops will add just as much strength as the bartacks do. For the record the Misty harness one of my sons has has four bartacks. I am a proponent for sew slings and was testing them as far back as 77 I still used (until today) boxed stitch and bartacked slings 20+ years old.
I was the manufacture of all the original Chouinard harnesses up through Rod Johnson’s “Bod” series. I have been wracking my brain if it was one of our Alpine models that was involved in the guide incident but the Culp harness rings the bell a little more. I do want to say there were a couple cases though. All are buckle related.
You are the most vulnerable when rappelling so redundancy can’t hurt even if these slings are rated so high. I do hope they find Todd’s loop so we can understand what happened better.
Mike
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:24pm PT
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Hey guys -
Thank you for your responses, I really appreciate all of the expertise on this board. Its awesome to have a place to go with questions when just wondering about this stuff no longer seems good enough.
And Russ, I look forward to seeing you in the new Petzl sporty-clip-speedy-pro-redundotron next time I'm in Josh. ;)
-Kate.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:32pm PT
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Juan-
Harness brand would be interesting, but not relevant
I really do not see how you can make that statement. It could be a flaw inherent in the particular harness design. Or a particular device could be interacting with said harness in a way that other harnesses do not.
JDF
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:40pm PT
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Juan-
Harness design could be argued but close examination of todays harnesses will show little geometry difference or diff in the belay loop area of much significance.
Remember this is an aged harness that has lasted to a state of condition to warrant verbal comment... This would indicate significant ware... This could indicate the harness was doing more than talking to to its owner, but screaming.
sheesh sounds like I hurt your feelings. can't we just get along?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:40pm PT
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I was the manufacture of all the original Chouinard harnesses up through Rod Johnson’s “Bod” series. I have been wracking my brain if it was one of our Alpine models that was involved in the guide incident but the Culp harness rings the bell a little more. I do want to say there were a couple cases though. All are buckle related.
Moot point, perhaps, but interesting none the less. I recall it was a Culp and not a Bod. From my hazy memory, the guy was tied into a locking biner, which was clipped to the harness, through the leg loop connector webbing, and the waist webbing. Which negated the nice feature of the Culp, being that if you tied straight into with the rope, you didn't really need the webbing for the waist doubled back through the buckle, as the loops for the tie-in were outside and not part of the buckle/webbing (similar to the old Wild Country Alpinist, only a little more useable, IMO). I kinda remember this because it seemed interesting to me that you could sue a harness maker and still not be using the harness optimally (by clipping into a locking biner, rather than tying straight into the harness). Story went that the guy undid the waist webbing to whizz, then re-did the waist buckle without the double back through. Later, when he loaded the harness, the waist came undone and the biner he was clipped to came off the waist and he dumped out of the harness with the biner still attached to the leg loop span of webbing.
Er something. Anyhoo...(have an inquiry into a former Chouinard/BD harness guy)...
-Brian in SLC
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
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Great responses (better than my snakes thread) and some interesting posts. I wasn't trying to point out or pick on any manufacturer, but I believe this tragedy can have some learning points.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:51pm PT
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If a university or other independent testing facility would volunteer to test belay loops (whole harnesses being difficult), we could gather some important data on this question. With some scrounging, we could get 300 hundred or so together, which would probably be a decent sample if: the distribution of harness ages was fairly broad, no brands (models?) with less than, say, 30 observations were included, and all were tested to failure. Engineers? Analyzing the data shouldn't be too hard (MR).
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 05:14pm PT
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Gosh Tarek take a look at your harness. Does the belay loop look like the weak link?
I'm with Russ that a back up would be nice. If any of us want this we can add it ourselves if need be.
Trying to break a belay loop can certainly be done, but not with equipment typical to our industry... The loop is too strong for the testing equipment.
On the other hand, the other components of the harness can be pulled to failure.
I just hate to see us get emotionaly side tracked from the technical aspects of the harness because the instance (I am just knots inside over the Todd Skinner tragedy) appears to be the loop... It appears through comments on this thread it would be reasonable to say it was worn out.
Worn out how. We cannot say. could a brand new loop exposed to acid fail today yes.
Could a 6 month old loop fail today from abrasion, yes.
Could a good loop fail during rapel. Maybe. I am certain somebody can route the rope in some strange way that it could cut the loop from heat and friction of the rope.
These things are made of webbing, fabric, foam and buckles. They are not magic. They are just a solution for the need of a climbing harness. Their condition to do their job is up to us (I know there is an ANSI test for harnesses... This is a good thing and manufacturers do use it).
Now if we saw a complete seperation of webbing or stitching of a harness in optimum repair, I think some of these concerns would be more valid. I also think the harness would not meet the ANSI test, and I would expect a BAD BATCH scenario, that would be scary!
Todays harnesses are good. Their condition is your responsibility.
More laws / regulations are not a good response to tragedy if they are only there to make people feel better in the moment.
I will miss Todd, and I love this sport and the equipment too much to see us one day climbing by way of crane and manbasket backed up by a helicopter with a litter attached. That would just be loud and boring.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Oct 25, 2006 - 05:21pm PT
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Well, that pretty much sums it up.
Climbing is dangerous. Check your friends twice and yourself thrice.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 05:28pm PT
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"Never liked the belay loop thing as the single point of contact.... I'm smart enough to know it is bomber (when new) but I still don't really like it, for no good reason."
When climbing you're tied into the rope, which backs up the belay loop--I clip through both anyway. An exception being single pitch cragging, where we may not be tied to the rope while belaying.
For raps, I'm sure I've used the belay loop before, but I think my normal practice is not to. If it wasn't I expect it will be. At least until I buy a harness that wasn't made in the 90s.
Using the belay loop alone sometimes bothers me too.
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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Oct 25, 2006 - 05:44pm PT
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This doesn't make sense to me. If they were working the route, that implies falling and hanging. If the belay loop were to fail, it seems more likely that it would fail catching a fall, not during a body-weight rappel. My guess is that there's more to the story. In any event, it truly is a tragedy.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 25, 2006 - 05:47pm PT
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I am sure their is a lot of photographic evidence of the harness in question.
JDF
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 25, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Lam, when I've climbed with Todd, or virtually anyone else, he/they don't tie into the belay loop.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 06:35pm PT
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If the leader takes a fall, the belay device is connected to the belay loop. The belay loop takes the load, not the tie in.
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Neil
Gym climber
Here and there
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Oct 25, 2006 - 07:25pm PT
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There are a number of issues at hand, but I'd like to address the testing of equipment by manufacturers:
Why doesn't the climbing industry report their tests of equipment to an independent organization that makes those tests available to the public in a digestible fashion?
Why is most of our data on equipment come from random tests that motivated individuals do from time to time? I'm thinking of JL's tests on cordalette equalization, Craig L's test on ice screws, etc. Shouldn't the creation of this data come from the industry?
I would like to see the climbing industry be more proactive about reporting testing data. It seems that some companies do this better than other--BD comes to mind--but the information still takes time to dig through.
How is it that a mag can post a study indicating that rope marking pens decrease rope strength, but I call up a maufacturer and they tell me not to worry about it?
How come no one is doing tests of the breaking strengths of harnesses that are 5 years old? Rope that's 5 years old?
Is it because we aren't asking for it, comfortable to rely on anecdotes and half-truths?
I don't know. But I do think that the climbing industry needs to create a clearinghouse for information of testing data.
Cheers,
Nate
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Oct 25, 2006 - 07:32pm PT
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A few random thoughts for folks. I used to be an mech. engr. did a little gear testing back in the 80s looking at environment affects (acid rain/UV) on ropes. We found that they did not affect the ropes as much as one would think as such our conclusion was that "in general use" and abuse is was what caused nylon to lose its strength.
Also back in the 80s one of the rope mfg. took an unused rope that had been stored and did a drop test on it. It failed on the first drop. Nylon products degrade due to oxidation.
Now to the harnesses and belay loops. I am also one that does not like them. I have a DMM biner clipped in that I use for rappelling and belaying. The only thing the belay loop gets used for is that is where my daisy chain is girth hitched to. I also use it for the occasional supplemental clipping of biners or tie ins.
Last year I replaced my old harness that I did the same with - did not used the belay loop. Even though I did not use the belay loop was it showed alot of wear as it was quite fuzzy. Had I used it, it probably would have seen alot more wear.
Here is why? One if you have biner connected to it the biner slides around as does the loop. Two, When belaying where is your rope most of the time? On the ground. yeah it may be stacked on a tarp or some thing but ever noticed all the crap on the tarp? Well that crap gets in your rope cuts a few fiber there and then can get squeezed out while belaying and lands in the loop where it can cut a few more fibers. Third, when used the belay loop is subject to some tight bends that loaded repeatedly. Similar to a quickdraw but the different is enven though draws take falls one has lots of them. There is only one belay loop.
YMMV
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 07:32pm PT
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Results of testing used equipment is going to be dependant on the abuse from the user. This info is going to be inconclusive. Take responsibilty for yourself and learn about the gear and materials. This is a do it yourself sport, not an amusement ride.
Edit:
This sounds meaner than I mean it to. But you get the point.
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