Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 10:12am PT
|
Back in the day we all of us despised OFPs. Now we share the crags with them.
Yeah, f*#k ordinary people. They don't deserve to climb on public lands, unlike us REAL climbers.
If I see this guy on my trail he is gonna get mugged!
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 10:39am PT
|
I wonder, how often and how severe does one need to get injured to claim they have pushed it hard on rock? :)
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 10:55am PT
|
It's a well known fact that many an old mountain hardman was a cheater who had a gym in his cellar or garden...
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 11:11am PT
|
'Athletic performance' and grades have risen (as they always have), but the bottom line is the skills and abilities have plummeted as a percentage of the total demographic. It's now more like gymnastics where millions are culled to produce a very small percentage of top performers. Pre-gyms and pre-sport, the overall performance spread across the entire demographic was far, far narrower.
data?
but lets assume you aren't just pulling this out of your crusty trad butt...
If this is true, why do you want it to change? Instead of 'grid bolted crags in a two hour radius of major cities', there would be a large demographic that aspired to do 5.10 R/X routes from the 70s with sparse rusted bolts... then those crags would have waiting lines.
There are more people in the last 30 years and climbing gyms have made climbing available to many who would never have the experience. The midwest has seen a lot of new gyms. Why do you want to deny people, especially kids, a part of what inspires you?
Some don't want to and stay in gyms, others would like to and will eventually leave fly over country to move to CO and do 'Trad' lines with thousands of others seeking that experience.
But why are gyms bad? They get people into the same sport you enjoy. It isn't an exclusive club.
Oh and apparently women do the climbing now too. They are even allowed to wear short pants when they do it!
|
|
Matt's
climber
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 03:22pm PT
|
warbler-- you've been arguing back and forth with "cat t."
In case you don't know-- cat is a neuroscientist, a badass climber and has done first ascents with vitaly.
I think you missed her main observation about why there are way fewer female FAs than male FAs.
She observed how many male partners belittle their female partners.
Imagine if your climbing mentors belittled you. If they never let you lead any of the runout or scary pitches because "you weren't good enough, didn't have the balls". If they always made you follow. If they never taught you how to place gear.
Would you have developed as a climber?
Would you have gone onto an enviable list of FAs?
matt
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 04:46pm PT
|
It can go in circles indefinitely:
"User Group X engages less in Activity Y because they are actively discouraged."
"No, they engage less in Activity Y because User Group X does not like Activity Y."
"They don't like Activity Y because they're met with negativity and adversity when they try it."
"Yes, because members of User Group X don't belong there."
"....it's that attitude exactly that keeps them out..."
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
|
Last contribution to the discussion before I lose reception and start a giant hike with lots of bushwhacking and maybe some interesting climbing predicted by Google Earth. ....
It is important to judge individuals as individuals. If Warbler was treated like sh#t by his mentors I don't think he would stick around him/her. As any normal female should not stick around their guy mentor or a friend who treats her like sh#t. There are plenty of other people to climb with and be friends with. And plenty of things to do in the wild by yourself if you are seeking to climb.
When I met Caitlin, she asked me for advice on climbing OWs, in the gym (LOL), and I think I was nice and encouraging. I didn't want anything from her and didn't even think we would end up climbing together. FAs with giant approaches were not even in my dreams. But anyway, we have a healthy relationship in which I don't treat her better or worse than my male partners with similar experience level. At this point I think we both learned and had some benefit from climbing with each other.
And I am sure Lynn Hill was not put down by her guy friends. One thing for sure, she was able to stick up for herself. At least the "it goes boys!" statement is classic. Seems like she was able to stick up for herself. Trying to make a point that in the past, i am sure there were also encouraging guy partners. Not as awesome as me of course. :)
There are people out there who may treat you as an inferior climber or a human, no matter if you look, smell, talk different or are of a different nationality. But f*#k those people there are others who will be excited to get out and 'send the gnar' on high altitude double corniced death traps or learn how to belay in the gym. It is important to avoid stereotyping men or women because one, two or several were not fair to you.
If mountains are calling, it has always been and will be up to an individual to make it as tame or as spicy of an experience as they want. So I don't see why anyone would feel the need to bash the current climbing culture or random individuals as tame. And I don't see the problem with bolts, as long as they are not put into established routes without the consent of a FA party. But that's a different discussion. Plenty of cliffs for those who want to sport climb, trad climb or do FAs. As Warbler pointed out earlier, you don't have to climb in a circle of those you don't want around. Personally, the only type of a climber that annoys me is the one that goes to a popular crag and complains about all the 'noobs' around....if you constantly find yourself surrounded by people you don't like and you are not guiding, maybe it is time to change the venue and quit whining on the internet. Just my 2 cents..as I said before, during the different supertopo gathering I have met all sorts of climbers. From 60 year old beginners, older legends to pathological liars, spraymasters and dirtbags. I personally love the diversity and realized that a person's skill level, list of el cap routes they have free climbed and their ability to cope with runouts is not as important as their personality. So surround yourself with positive people and don't get seriously hurt trying to impress your peers while putting up that R X test piece :)
|
|
ecflau
Gym climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
|
Funny thread. I was mostly a boulderer until my wife got me into sport/trad climbing, and my crash pads have only left the garage once in the past 3 years.
My wife also has a lot more courage then me too... at least a few times, when I'm getting scared, she just goes "c'mon, you climb 5.xx ... if you don't go for it, I'll do it"
Also, just wanted to add... I still enjoy gym climbing. I know its sacrilegious to say, but I do.
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
|
I think the reason I found Warbler's misogynistic statements so shockingly disagreeable, actually, is that I've been able to very effectively avoid interacting with partners like that.
Everyone I've climbed with has been supportive and pushed me really hard, and gender has never been an issue for me, in either science or in climbing. If I wanted to live my life convinced that I was being victimized, it would be easy to find men that DO think less of women. They are abundant. However, I have the great luck to have been raised by a pair of middle class engineers who taught me that women should be assertive and independent. I do not enjoy bemoaning the horrors of sexism and so I choose (a choice NOT available to many women) to surround myself with people who aren't shitty. The dudes I choose to hang out with are people like Vitaliy, Matt, and Mike, all of whom posted reasonable things in this thread, who treat me like an equal.
Not everyone has the freedom to make that choice, though, and many people--men or women--will only take so much abuse from a community before they decide it's not worth their time to keep searching for companions who don't suck. So: don't be the person that sucks.
My very first alpine climb was a weekend of following V up FAs at Flatiron Butte. Last summer, hiking out from the FA (also just following) of the Southeast Arete of Castle Domes, I exclaimed to V, "I am the luckiest newb!!!!" It marked one year of climbing (of any sort); I'd been trad climbing for about three months, and somehow I'd lucked into accompanying V on remote FAs? I know I'm lucky. You need not state it with dripping condescension. I've been very fortunate to learn in this way--but I also had to make my own luck--by being totally game to hike absurd distances, push past my physical limits, try things that I thought were impossible--
I need not defend myself to you, though, and you seem pretty damn set in your ways.
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
|
Since you want to get nasty, would you be doing those backcountry FAs without him? Wait, how is this nasty? Would my second multipitch climb have been an FA if it weren't for Vitaliy...no! Of course not! My pride is in no way wounded by that.
After a summer of learning from V it was very important to me to do more of my own planning and organizing. Thus far that effort has been limited to routes that've been climbed before, and I'm cool with that, at this point in my development as a climber.
I do wonder about this a lot: what WILL my climbing preferences be as I become more experienced and independent? I'm not sure. My main focus at the present moment is my science. the amount of time V spends thinking about new lines honestly rivals my dedication to understanding neuronal development. It's hard to imagine splitting my focus and devoting that much time to researching new areas. The idea of exploration, though, is endlessly appealing, so I hope that in coming years I'll get the chance to at LEAST seek out obscurities and perhaps start scoping out some areas of my own. Probably not 5.12s on bubbs, though :)
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
|
Please kitten,
misogynistic is a strong word to be throwing at me.
how about you keep calling her kitten even though she asked you not to?
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 08:39pm PT
|
Nope! Never said you were a woman-hater, just that you made statements that were hateful. Which, indeed, is true!
|
|
The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
|
The point of this article is about the state of pure athletic performance in climbing-
This incredible dude is one of my all time climbing Heroes. He was and still remains one of Climbings true & real Badasses of Badasses. I wonder what the author of this article would think about him if he was alive today. That's of course if the author and most here on this site even know who he is.
Totally amazes me how one's perceptions (or in most cases, misperceptions) can actually govern reality... to some that is. Must of course be a "Locals Only" thing.
|
|
The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
|
^^^^^^^^^^ Yup! Then he'd kick your ass for being a hypocrite freakoid weed smoking Cali hippy for the same issue that you wanted to be backed up on. Not joking either. He did it numerous times for less all over the world as you well know. Now that was a "sport" to him. He made many a folks cringe when they saw him coming.
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Aug 21, 2015 - 04:23am PT
|
She calls me an arrogant misogynist, and can't explain why, gets a pass, I call her kitten twice, and you agree I'm a woman hater?
Yes, i would agree that 'woman hater' is probably overblowing it, but the word misogyny is thrown around a lot.
I was pointing out what is the blatant irony of calling her a name you know she doesn't like then wondering why she doesn't like you.
|
|
steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
|
|
|
Aug 21, 2015 - 04:53am PT
|
The Chief,
Sorry for the thread drift, but I want to tell you a story concerning Whillans.
In 1971, I was up in the Lakes Distict, UK, drinking a beer in a local pub.
My climbing partner was a local guy, who knew everybody.
I was young, and at that time worshiped all the "famous" climbers. I asked my buddy if any of the "famous" climbers ever came into this pub. He leaned over and whispered in my ear, Don Whillans is sitting right in front of you.
I felt like such an ass. Whillans was listening to my whole conversation,
with kind of a smug expression on his face, sipping his beer.
|
|
The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
|
|
|
Aug 21, 2015 - 05:48am PT
|
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yup!! Met him briefly twice back in the mid 70's.
On the second "chance" meeting in the Misurina Hotel bar in Oct 78', I approached him, got his attention, stuck out my hand in gesture, then told him to "Piss off!" with a "smug grin" on my face. I actually startled him. He got off his stool, paused, looked me straight in the eye (as we are about equal height), then said "Aye mate!" He then stuck out his stein of piss to toast up, we clicked steins and had a very brief conversation about the Comici-Dimai on the Cima Grande that me and my buddy were preparing to do in the morning. We shook hands again and he wished me good "Cheers" on the climb.
Thought about our meeting the entire climb.
Steve A... thanks for reminding me.
PS: Clean Aid Solo'd Mordor Wall back in May of 94'. Loved it actually. Thanks for helping finishing up the route, Steve.
AND... Thanks for your Service!!!
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Aug 21, 2015 - 08:03am PT
|
I've repeatedly questioned her perspective and her use of the English language Exactly! You were never going to listen to or respond to the content of anything I said--you were just going to continue saying, "your perspective is invalid."
Granted, my initial response to your initial claim was simply laughter--I thought you were joking, actually. The discussion of gender honestly should've been ended with crunch's statement "You're confusing cause and effect." There are a lot of interesting real points in this thread, and this argument is NOT one of them, it's a pile. Actually, thinking about how/why different people are more or less excited about certain kinds of climbing could be a very interesting conversation. It's not the conversation we had.
Women aren't used to being dealt with like that. Most men mostly kiss ass to women, especially hot young ones, for reasons that are obvious, to me anyway. You can't have a discussion where any attempt at communication is met with mockery. That has nothing to do with "kissing ass." I've had plenty of philosophical discussions with V and Matt where they think I am really damn wrong, and they tell me--loudly--by talking about the issue, not about how I'm a silly kitten.
Also, you ain't special. I'm from Texas. This sort of argument style ("your argument is invalid because you are a hot young girl and I know better") is something any young woman growing up in the small town south is quite used to. I guess I've been gone long enough that I forgot it's better to just avoid those people.
Totally amazes me how one's perceptions (or in most cases, misperceptions) can actually govern reality Spot on, Chief!!
Thanks for the stories, SteveA and Chief, totally great.
|
|
The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
|
|
|
Aug 21, 2015 - 09:21am PT
|
And by the way, Don Whillans beat his wife. He was also a violent alcoholic. That is prime source information from a person who knew the family VERY VERY well
All in Perrin's book Tami.
BUT, several months before he died, he came/got clean and made amends for all his many past ill behaviors. He got some big time help from a bunch of his "recovering" life time friends that grew up and lived the same learned lifestyle as the entire generations from that region did. Not an excuse just a fact of life for them all.
Now that is what makes him a true Badass and as a Recovering Hardcore Alcoholic myself (Never laid a hand on my Wife/s but did on many males that crossed my path in my alcoholic stupor), I revere.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!