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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Aug 12, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
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I only respond now to Ron being a dick.
Ron, You are a shallow useless shell of a human. Can't wait to run into you so I can heckle your pathetic existence. Go stuff yourself. You tarnish this forum.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Aug 12, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
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Ron Anderson
Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Aug 12, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
Meh, this depression excuse is just that. Who among us hasnt been depressed unless your like 20 yrs old.
More likely is that the cap pills he was given FOR that depression kept him in it. I swear, the more we here about depression, the worse results are- and that is with the onslaught of pill after pill developed just for "the brain".
This may be the single most ignorant post in the history of the internet. You really have to feel sorry for someone like this.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 12, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
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Good insights Wade, but it may be simpler. Or at least there may be another big part of it.
From what I have learned talking to people with depression is that, at least for them, it seems to be a downward spiral of fear, anxiety, and hopelessness. They don't want to go on living the way they feel and they feel they don't have the capability to do anything about it. The less they feel in control the more hopeless they feel. The worse they feel, the worse it makes them feel. They fear things will get worse. All those negative feelings continue to spiral downward and amplify the bad feelings.
However since many people have dealt with this it has been studied and things have been developed to help. But it's tough to take the steps to get that help. It's tough being on the outside to know how much to do to try to help, like I'm sure it was for his family.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 12, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
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My physician treated it as a medical emergency,, and I'm very grateful that he did. Depression inhibits good judgment rather like hypothermia -- you just don't care. My depression was totally endogenous, i.e. it had no basis in my circumstances, but focusing merely on the trigger misses the point. Telling someone with a true depression to "man up" and get over it harms, not helps.
The above is the single most correct thing I've seen posted. This is superb insight, John.
Several people consistently confuse what we call clinical depression, or "major depression", for which there is no identifiable life problem causing it, from "the blues", which usually have clear-cut reasons for feeling "down." I often describe that latter as "my dog died" syndrome.
There can be, of course, both present simultaneously.
the descriptions and suggestions for "the blues" are not insightful for what is going on in major depression. Antidepressants are not generally helpful for the blues, although the sleep-inducing qualities of some like Doxepin can be helpful. Talk therapy can be very helpful. There is very little risk of suicide.
But what John and others have said about major depression is key: the brain is not working right. What he said about hypothermia is right on....I often think about it being about equally useful to yell at a patient in a diabetic coma to "straighten up" and "care about your loved ones". What we need to do is treat the diabetes, eh? Treat the hypothermia, eh? Treat the hypoxia, eh?
Would we call those people "weak" or selfish?
It is a chemical abnormality. You might as well as yell at your car to care about what it is doing to you, when it won't start after you put diesel in the gasoline engine. It doesn't care, it doesn't even hear.
The severely depressed patient has lost the ability to care, as well. That is hard to relate to, and is why most people don't understand the process, and dismiss it the way that ron does.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Aug 12, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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Suicidal ideations and depression go hand-in-hand. I've described my own battles with depression in some of those threads, and repeat my offer to talk to anyone who is facing that abyss. I've been through the valley of the shadow of death, and lived to tell the tale.
I'm assuming by your personal interest, skitch, that this question matters to you. It matters to me, too, and I've had many, many conversations with people in acute suicidal crises. I encourage you to completely ignore the idiotic voices that seem to always find their way into threads of any substance, and connect with those whose hearts are genuinely reaching out to be of assistance (i.e. JEleazarian's).
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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Aug 12, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
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Suicidal thoughts are simply one of the symptoms of depression.
Not unlike DUIs are a symptom of alcoholism.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Aug 12, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
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To answer the original OP - yes. I do.
Not to be a sob sister about this "woe is me my life sucks so bad po pitiful me" but living with manic depression is a full time shitfest of a career.
A career that haunts your every day.
When you are "manic" - people call you motivated, creative, exciting, genius, a leader. You find yourself acing any test you are given, excelling at any challenge or occupation, capable of creating amazing things be they as plebeian as a really good food dish or as challenging as a technological advance for your industry.
You get to walk on water like JC Junior.
But without warning or reason, you awake the very next day feeling like the biggest piece of sh#t failure in the history of humankind. You don't want to feel like this. You truly grasp the lunacy of this moment. You go from the charming wizard to being a cruel hateful self-loathing SOB...and you are fully aware that you have shifted...and equally fully aware that you have no conscious say-so in this transition.
It is evil Zen.
It is your both your reality and your moment.
And you hate yourself for what your behavior does to those you like and love around you.
And you can't stop it.
And some times you get so incredibly sick and tired of this roller coaster that you pray past your atheist pagan rational veil and implore ANY god to stop it now - please.
And sometimes you try it yourself.
But when you do. when you consciously invite death into your life and you are holding the gun and the rain is falling and your wife and baby child have left you and you just want it to end just let me go ahead and stop it now and start it again as someone else '
when you are one breath away
the shadows in the hallway across from the couch come to life
they pull away from the walls and swirl and twist entwining into a sinuous fog stretching out writhing towards you like a soul sucking snake
You can allow it to take you.
You can say no.
I'm still here.
Some people are not.
I cast no judgement.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Aug 12, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
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Right on Chief. I wish my dad had a group like you have. When he returned from Viet Nam he brought some powerful demons with him. At that time talking about such issues could earn a person some nasty labels so he kept it mostly to himself. Eventually the demons won the battle and we lost a fine loving man.
Thanks for the great comment.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 12, 2014 - 08:12pm PT
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Meh, this depression excuse is just that. Who among us hasnt been depressed unless your like 20 yrs old.
More likely is that the cap pills he was given FOR that depression kept him in it. I swear, the more we here about depression, the worse results are- and that is with the onslaught of pill after pill developed just for "the brain".
As far as Robbin Williams, he was rich, well known, famous world wide. That alone should have given him the strength and confidence of himself to fight off depression or any other challenges. But combine it with a healthy liquor and drug problem at the same time-- he didnt have a chance for a clear thought. And of you tell yourslef your depressed long enough, every fiber of your being will believe it.
Ron, that is perhaps the most ignorant and disgusting post ever made on Supertopo.
For years, as posters here have made fun of you, or disagreed with you, or dumped on you for whatever reason, I've always said to myself "Well, sure, I don't agree with everything he says, but he's probably an okay guy."
Obviously, I was wrong.
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Capt.
climber
some eastside hovel
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Aug 12, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
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Wow RickyD... I dont consider myself suicidal but that prose struck home. I've felt that way many a-morning. Well spoken.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Aug 12, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
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Ron, that is perhaps the most ignorant and disgusting post ever made on Supertopo.
Just one of many. It's amazing how clueless one can be.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Aug 12, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
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I used to be very judgmental about suicide. But with life experience helping those in pain I've come to realize, particularly with severe depression, that the act is not what I had thought. I had thought it was a selfish act of choosing death over life to the harm of loved ones. Now, I realize that the suicide's goal is really to get away from the pain. Like a man running from a lion who jumps from the cliff, one suffering severe depression jumps into the abyss to escape the pain. Or, with immense understanding and respect for those killed in 9/11, we can look at those people who jumped into the abyss from the Twin Towers to escape a hellish, fiery world. For the severely depressed the hellishness of depression is just as real.
-anonymous
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 12, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
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I'd have to guess that most people, if they live long enough, have contemplated suicide during troubling times/situational stress. This in itself is not necessarily clinical depression. Those of us with "normal" brains tend to correlate our own experiences of situational sadness, sometimes profound, with clinical depression. There is little comparison.
Until you've experienced it yourself or lived with someone who has battled with it for years or decades it's impossible to really explain. I doubt Ron really understands what it's like, most people don't.
The only advice I can offer if you're one of these unfortunate souls who are tortured by this affliction is to tread carefully in the mental health arena. The current crop of psychiatrists are largely no better than drug pushers on the corner. I suspect the parabolic increase in suicides and in particular murder/suicides are due partially to the lack of oversight when prescribing these extremely powerful psychotropics. I've seen the horrible results firsthand.
Finding a psychologist you can really relate to for long term counseling is essential. If you choose, or need to (and plenty do), try the current drugs, do so with great care and find a psychiatrist who will actually actively work with your therapist to tune these meds....
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Aug 12, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
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^^ great post here, from fear.
I am a psychotherapist and my experience of psychiatrists leaves me situationally depressed. A really good one is so hard to find.
The standard for prescribing is to prescribe, give it 4-6 weeks to work, adjust it, maybe change the meds entirely, adjust that, and keep tinkering with the meds until the appropriate dosage and combination is achieved. What is agonizing is that this can take months and months, all the while, the patient is in a black abyss.
One of my present clients was treated with electroshock therapy for her severe depression. Don't get me started on that. However it did change her state so that eventually she was able to return to work and get off of disability.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 12, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
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Many artists connect with the unfathomable, the infinite, the pure power source. Most it drives crazy or blinds. People cannot handle that much pure radiance. With all due respect, as brilliant as he was, he could not handle that kind of force, that kind of connection. Takes many many lives.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Aug 12, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
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Drugs help buy you time - but what really helps is putting a name to the beast. When you are lucky enough to find a listener who can put a name to what you are - you gain power over the thing.
When you know what you are.
When you can recognize when it comes upon you.
When those around you know to give you space.
You CAN ride it out.
I won't kid you that it doesn't hurt and sucks a heck of a lot of life from your body. But if you can learn to live for the highs - and they are f'ing GREAT - then you can survive and be mostly okay, and that can be enough.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 12, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
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I am a psychotherapist and my experience of psychiatrists leaves me situationally depressed. A really good one is so hard to find.
The standard for prescribing is to prescribe, give it 4-6 weeks to work, adjust it, maybe change the meds entirely, adjust that, and keep tinkering with the meds until the appropriate dosage and combination is achieved. What is agonizing is that this can take months and months, all the while, the patient is in a black abyss.
I was very fortunate to have had an excellent psychiatrist and a fantastic in-house program for three months at age 14
My issue was not depression but hyperactivity and emotional dysfunction. Kinda catchall terms but very serious for me and no joke. Ongoing for years and exacerbated in puberty. Again these are caused by (or the causes create) chemical imbalances in the brain.. not well understood to this day. Very complex systems involved here.
This program did an exceptional job of having staff members keeping track of various metrics that were reviewed WEEKLY. I went through at least 5 different medications in 3 months and various dosages within regimes. This is difficult to accomplish as blood levels take time to stabilize.
Behavior is measurable but without an inhouse monitored environment i suspect it is much more difficult.
The nature of mental illness itself makes it very difficult to treat outside a controlled environment with outside observers..
The system needs to consider thes types of health issues the same way it does a severe hard to treat infection that requires a few months in the hospital.
In my case we ended up with a pair of very powerful medications that perhaps had not been used together. Once I had the right medications the change in my behavior was dramatic. Very clear even to myself. As remarkable as the proper medications were it is also interesting that improper ones caused significant problems. Those wrong medication periods could be deadly to someone not closely supervised in a depression.
Worked well for me for several years until my nervous system settled down enough just before my 20's for me to ween off..Still deal with some things that are just me( whatever that means).. but fortunately as I got older they were not as severe and I learned ways to be a reasonable member of society. I was lucky in many ways.
Sadly so many are not.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 12, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
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Chief, I'd put $$$$ on the suicide rate of vets squarely on the out-of-control meds by licensed drug pushers. Writing scripts is easy work. Burying bodies is easy work (and cheap). Long-term therapy with an intelligent therapist is hard, and very expensive. Which route do you think the feds would take?
The problem with these meds is for the companies to profit, they have to constantly churn out new formulas before the patent expires and the generic gang gets in on their turf. Thus we have a constant supply of unproven new poison being prescribed haphazardly, with zero oversight, to people that largely probably don't need meds.
What we've done to our broken boys when they come back after fighting our banker's wars overseas is absolutely disgusting...
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 12, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
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^^ I know there is a lot of bad stuff going on in medicine regarding treatment of these dysfunctions. Profit motive and lack of resources can be a bad combination.
However If a person who can be helped this way can find a really good program and afford it.. then the results can be almost miraculous.
Not all can be helped. But when it works .. it's as amazing and lifesaving as a heart transplant.
I would not wish to discourage those seeking help from looking into what is possible on the good side of drug therapy.
Along with any other tools that can help.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Aug 12, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
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If you are lucky you may know yourself, don't assume what others are dealing with...
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