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Mike Ierien
Trad climber
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I'm curious, how many people were pissed when Ulrich, Basso, and others were banned from this year's Tour on ALLEGATIONS? I also wonder how many of these same people are convicting Landis. As of yet, nothing has been PROVEN.
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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JAK, I hope that you don't think that I am jealous of Lance Armstorng just because I said the he always came across as a jerk to me in my first post on this thread.
I have no reason to be jealous of Armstrong, at all. I quit competitive cycling after four races because I just didn't like it.
The only reason I entered the first race, the El Sobrante Hill Climb (East Bay) in 1971, was just to win the $10 prize so I could buy a lid of grass. I came in fourth, literally inches behind the winner, (I have the fourth place ribbon still someplace) in a pack of four (there were about 30 or so cyclists if I remember correctly). The first three guys had all the gear - racing outfits, cleats on their shoes, etc. I had cutoff jeans a t-shirt and old Converse tennies. Perhaps if I had cleats to help me on the upward pedal, I would have won (I would have too).
I then raced three more time (with the same gear) in a Bay Area high school circuit/league. Never did like it. I was far more into climbing. What I did have was a Pogliaghi with all Campy gear (my brother's bike, he still has it and apparently it could fetch a pretty penny). Damn good bike.
Nope, jealousy is not the order of the day. It just is that just about every time I hear him interviewed or read his quotes, he seemed both petty and arrogant.
That was aimed more at radical. The vast majority of Lance-bashing is simple jealousy and its easy to see. There are a few valid criticisms, but they're usually weak ("I don't care for his personality.") and not really worth discussing. Opinions will be what they will be.
What drives a lot of people nuts about Lance is that he's good, he's better than most juicing athletes in his field naturally, and he doesn't try to pretend he's worse than he is in the misguided name of "modesty" or "humbleness" (stupid concepts to apply to any elite athlete for obvious reasons).
He's not an as#@&%e, more correctly, he's a Texan, and they tend to frustrate people by having a high level of independence and a startling propensity to cut through the bullshit and not bother with things that don't matter.
A lot of people are confused and think a lot of things matter that don't in the slightest. Lance isn't concerned with people liking him, because it doesn't affect him one way or another, other than having to take twice as many drug tests.
But you have to give the guy credit, drugs or no drugs he fought off the health adversary of cancer and won the biggest bike race.
No drugs, and yes, he survived cancer and went on to win the biggest bike race in the world consecutively a record setting number of times. It's quite something to be best in the world at a given activity.
But about this Euro bashing thing, Bob and you over-exaggerate the animosity that the Europeans have against us.
(but it's more of a sideshow to the f*ck America bandwagon truth be told)
I definitely dispute that “truth”. You are swallowing the BS right-twit anti-Euro crap. Intelligent Europeans are no more anti-American than most intelligent Americans are anti-Euro. I have lived and worked as a journalist in Europe for much the past 20 plus years, so I think I might know one or two things about the people and their attitudes.
I never said the Europeans who bash the US were intelligent :)
Matter of fact, I'd warrant they aren't. The problem you run into here is that in both the US and Old Europe, intelligence is far in the minority.
And there has always been a certain level of anti-Americanism in Europe regarding sporting competition. Cycling is one of the big ones - the zealots just absolutely do not want to believe the US is dominating in yet *another* area.
You aren’t a neo-con by the way, are you? Or an eunuch? ;-)
No offence. Heh heh.
I hate neo-cons (they aren't conservative at all, so it's really a stupid misnomer) and I still have my testicles, yes. Thank you for asking. They appreciate the sentiment.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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I used to be the brand manager for AndroGel, the current leading prescription testosterone replacement product. Here's what I *think* based on three years of working it that area.
If you begin taking exogenous testosterone, your internal production almost shuts off. If you are in the habit of using exogenous testosterone regularly, then nearly all of the T in your blood will be exogenous.
Testosterone does have some immediate effects, and some delayed effects. The impacts on muscle mass, bone mass, etc. are delayed...it takes some time for these organs to respond. However, other impacts, such as increased libido, 'reduced fatigue' see AndroGel prescribing information, increased energy levels, improved mood, etc.) can be almost immediate. (See AndroGel prescribing information, www.androgel.com)
One 'off lable' use of testosterone whereby folks benefit from the immediate effects is when it is used to increase female libido. The effect takes place within minutes.
One of the main reasons that T is available and so widely used in gels, patches, and injections is because it is largely metabolized by the liver, meaning that to get enouth un-metabolized T into your blood you have to take a huge dose if you try to do it orally. This is can be very hard for the liver.
Also, the halflife is short so it must be dosed 2-3 times a day to maintain blood levels. Oral T is hard on your body and inconvenient. No accidental "water dosing" would likely result in detectable levels in the blood.
Oh yeah...and who are the key candidates for prescription testosterone replacement therapy? People with genetic disorders and people who have had testicular cancer and had one or more testicles removed. Without testosterone, men basically waste away.
Testing Lance Armstrongs urine for exogenous testosterone would most likely be positive for exogenous testosterone. (just a guess here...how could he be such a super athelete without T? Just take a look-see at the men who have no T for other reasons. Not so good)
A guy like Lance would need to replace his T levels to somewhere in the normal range (between 250 and 1100 ng/dl - rather broad, eh?) to function normally, this is considered the "normal range." The question becomes, where in the "normal range" do you replace to with a guy like Lance? Hmmmmm....
Anyway, I don't mean to be a big jerk here, but I make the HUGE assumption that his cancer actually helped his career. If he needed T replacement (testicle removed? He prolly has it), it would make perfect sense to replace to the highest end of the "normal" range, and it would be next to impossible to know if he dosed higher when not racing then bumped it down to "normal" for race time.
We did contact Lance's PR guys to see if they'd be interested in him being a spokesperson for how gel-based T can help men who have suffered from testicular cancer. They said no, of course. Has anyone ever seen press stating that Lance does not use T? I haven't seen this , but would like to see it if it exists.
-Kate.
edited for paragraps
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2006 - 01:23pm PT
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Oh yeah...and who are the key candidates for testosterone replacement therapy? People with genetic disorders and people who have had testicular cancer and had one or more testicles removed. Without testosterone, men basically waste away.
I had an ex-girlfriend once tell me that she was going to cut my nuts off. Did she mean more than two?
Wasting away...
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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As far as I know, one testicle is still enough to produce adequate testosterone for a normal male. If he'd had both removed, he might've needed hormone therapy, but if I recall correctly you don't need it if just a single gets removed.
I do think having and particularly surviving testicular cancer helped Armstrong's cycling career, but I believe that's because it got his perspective straight, not because of any of the treatments (quite the opposite in fact, I'd say he improved in spite of the treatments).
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Ain't it about the same to be blindly pro-Lance as it is to be blindly anti-Lance?
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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Well, the argument can be made that ignorance is ignorance...
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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oh skip it...arguing with a Lance groupie is like trying to argue with a fundamentalist muslim.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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He's not an as#@&%e, more correctly, he's a Texan, and they tend to frustrate people by having a high level of independence and a startling propensity to cut through the bullshit and not bother with things that don't matter.
Uh huh, sure and who voted Bush into the governor’s seat? Gimme a break.
Also, just go to Alaska and ask people what they think of Texans. Hell, go to any state and ask people what they think of Texans. Oh, I see, it’s just jealousy.
Say, you aren’t from Texas, are you?
And there has always been a certain level of anti-Americanism in Europe regarding sporting competition
Come on, and vice versa, that is the nature of competitive sport. Fans of a team from one city don’t like the fans of another city come game day. Look at the Olympics, do you see many Americans waving the flag of a nation that Americans are competing against? And the last Ryder Cup, don’t tell me the Euros were rooting for the Yanks and the Yanks rooting for the Euros.
Sorry Jak, but that one is a bit of a non-starter.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Well, the body does seem to have a feedback loop for T...which is why normal T production drops dramatically if exogenous T is used.
Therefore, there could be a physiological mechanism for the second testicle to "ramp up" production. I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other.
I don't know if he had one or two removed, seems that many folks only have one removed...
-Kate.
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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Uh huh, sure and who voted Bush into the governor’s seat? Gimme a break.
Also, just go to Alaska and ask people what they think of Texans. Hell, go to any state and ask people what they think of Texans. Oh, I see, it’s just jealousy.
Say, you aren’t from Texas, are you?
I love Alaska. Who...voted Bush into the Presidency.
I personally can't stand Bush.
I'm from North Carolina. You might've noticed that via the convient "location" header to the left, di-rectly underneath my name.
I do happen to have family down there however. As stated, they're more concerned with getting things done than making people happy. Tends to rub some out there the wrong way.
Come on, and vice versa, that is the nature of competitive sport. Fans of a team from one city don’t like the fans of another city come game day. Look at the Olympics, do you see many Americans waving the flag of a nation that Americans are competing against? And the last Ryder Cup, don’t tell me the Euros were rooting for the Yanks and the Yanks rooting for the Euros.
Sorry Jak, but that one is a bit of a non-starter.
Oh come off it. All those times a non-American won the tour, there was not a highly publicized outcry across this nation to test the bejesus out of the guy. No one really cared...which is really part of the issue. Not only did an American national kick Europe's ass for 7 years straight, but he did it in a sport that no one over here really gives much of a diddly about, and he did it without drugs. My my they're....irate?
If there's one thing that will get someone's dander up more than just stuffing their face in at their own game, it's doing it apparently without great effort and then ignoring their discontent. Not only are you winning, you're not even validating the process. It's almost as though the national reaction stateside is that "Cycling is beneath us...not enough commercialism..."
Good gracious, next thing you'll be trying to tell me the UN is still a relevant institution in world events or some such nonsense.
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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Lois wrote: Aren't you glad you were not living in those days. Sadly, most castrated youth did not "pass" standards voice-wise and were not accepted into the choirs, etc. For the vast majority, these boys were castrated for naught, sold into this fate by their parents who either wanted the money or else hoped that their sons would "make it" music-wise into the church. And some of you thought YOU had tough, heavy-handed dads.
Lois...do you think the "Boy Bands" of the 80's and early 90's were castrated???
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Texans are no different than anybody else Jak. Believe it or not, there are many people in California, Kansas, the Carolinas, Maine, Ireland, Europe etc who are more concerned with getting things done than making people happy. Tends to rub people the wrong way.
Your biases towards Europe and Europeans are too obvious, so don't try to make me think that you are objective on that score.
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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Yes, that's it, by pointing out an obvious circumstance that doesn't favor the European community on the subject of professional bike racing I am obviously a bigot against all citizens of the various countries of that continent. You sure caught me red handed!
Next.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Was it the same kind that Bobbi Bensman uses?
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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I don't know, they have caused me nothing but trouble and pain.
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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Lois wrote: I would hope not! I must confess ignorance - ok here goes - what exactly were "boy bands" of the 80s and 90s? I assume bands comprised of teenagers?
Backstreet Boys...New Kids on the Block, Menudo, Boyz 11 Men...etc.
I am suprised that someone like you that has such wealth of knowledge ( I mean that) would at least heard of them (boy bands).
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Just heard this. The testosterone wasn't synthetic. It was Michael Jackson's.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I know I caught you red-handed Jak, but at least you are man enough to admit it. ;-)
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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I'll have to ask around but I am pretty sure most of the people I know haven't dumped their wife who stood buy their side while they were on their death bed; once they made it big figuring out how to cheat better then the next cheater.
I don't know the circumstances of his divorce, so I can't really comment on that. Got a link to more info by any chance?
Aside from that, I have to again repeat my statement: You don't have to be a nice person to be an amazing athlete. Personally, I haven't seen anything about Lance that seems to have him strike me as anything more than brusque. He may not be much for words, but considering his past (and I'm not just talking about the cancer), I'm not surprised.
And I have to ask: Why on earth do you think Lance is cheating in some way? What lead to this conlcusion? Share that with me, and I'll be happy to give you the reasons why I think he isn't.
Just curious, have any of you who don't care for him read "It's Not About The Bike"? Excellent memoir-type book on Lance's young years, battle with cancer, and subsequent time afterwards.
I know I caught you red-handed Jak, but at least you are man enough to admit it. ;-)
:-P
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