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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 24, 2013 - 10:39am PT
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Complacency. Yes.
In the old days, climbing looked and felt dangerous, and we would climb with vigilance and fear and respect.
Sport/gym climbing looks and feels safe and we climb with the carefree attitude that this implies.
Nothing to do with age of participant (ask John Long or Phil Powers), has all to do with commercialization, the need to sell gear, the money to be made from marketing climbing as a safe, family-oriented activity.
If young people are being careless, it's because the older people who control the image of climbing have shifted that image (from hazardous, elitist to safe, inclusive) so as to sell more stuff.
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fluffy
Trad climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 10:44am PT
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as far as the photo of the imperfect belay goes it was my take from reading the comments below it that the caption initially read 'whosits demonstrating the lost art of anchor management' or whatever and when the critical comments started piling up he added 'but can you spot the mistakes' part. in fact, I believe I might have first read it right before it was changed. anyway as climbing 'expert' he'd have to add that or pull the pic, it's not a perfect belay by any stretch.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:08am PT
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Okay, as fer as the belay goes, a couple of questions:
1) How do you know the chains are rusty?
2) Look closely. Doesn't it seem there are two bolts and one cold shut?
3) How do we know the biners are old, ratty, and fixed? She appears to be clipped into two.
There's just a lot there we can't see clearly. The slack connecting her to the anchor is a problem, in addition to the way the lines are crossed. I know about "what if," but seriously, what are the odds that a fat cold shut(that we can't see clearly to inspect) will fail with top rope stresses should her second fall? Also, what kind of "serious fall" could a second take if she is at all on the ball? She appears to be watching closely, yes? This is a bit hasty, but all things considered, probably fine. I'm sure similarly "sketchy" stuff happens all the time with these rad speed ascents of walls we're seeing these days.
You want a scary belay? I got to the top of Preparation H as an approach to Haystack at Lover's Leap. There on the ledge to my left was a "guide" bringing up a couple of clients. The "guide's" anchor? A SINGLE wired stopper placed low, at ledge level. He was sitting next to it. Jimminy Crickets!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:16am PT
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Agree^^She is clipped into two chains, not one. The redirect is on the cold shut and isn't a big deal on bolted multi-pitch. Too much slack and crossed lines are certainly not a great idea, but it's not really a death-belay. I've seen worse for sure.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:27am PT
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Crusty old skoolers NEVER made any mistakes... that they will admit to.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:39am PT
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Every time one of these threads happens, there is a chorus of crusty old-schoolers confessing to mistakes they have made that are similar to the incident under discussion.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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One of my favorite aspects of climbing is that it is a continual series of personal judgments, decisions, and actions that we have to make based on the conditions at hand.... And we are accountable for those choices/actions.
A famous climber who posts here on occasion, once told me "every time we get off the cliff alive, there was at least a little luck involved".
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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Showing subtle problem anchors is good critique for learning visualization.
I study everyone anchors.
One can learn so much from both good and bad.
Visualization is the most powerful tool of them all.
"Putting the younger generation of climbers in their place" is never a goal to begin with.
Only stupid people make such assumptions (Putting the younger generation of climbers in their place) ......
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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With regards to the anchor a lot of people are criticizing it due to "if the second falls" idea...why let your second fall to begin with? Any multipitch route I'm doing I'm keeping my second tight for several reasons 1. to speed things up and 2. minimize this whole second falling huge force on the anchor idea.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
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Using technology shortcuts is an advanced skill that is far too easy for the unskilled take advantage of. Silly mistakes get made and most are lucky to stay alive despite having made them.
Besides, it's all just mechanics.
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Sciurus
Sport climber
St. George UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
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"Only stupid people make such assumptions (Putting the younger generation of climbers in their place) ......"
And off we go with the personal insults... Guess I should have known better.
You actually make a good point about visualizing contingencies, but why the need to add a personal insult? My point with the picture was that they could have picked a photo for their exercise in visualization that did not have to be one of a well-known young climber who relies on her public image as a role model. Especially in the context of the article itself which slams the climbers of today and their perceived bad climbing habits.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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Of all the things that happen to cause us to focus more attention on our rigs - accidents or near accidents - a photo in a rag seems like getting off easy.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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Sciurus -- "I guess someone over there felt it was time to put the younger generation in their place."
You did the original guessing, projection and making assumptions .....
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
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Yeah it's actually quite easy just yell at them constantly while occasionally dislodging microwave sized rocks on top of them... what I meant was why allow enough slack in the system to create unnecessary forces.
I'll let myself out
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
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If I ever walk into a gym, I'll be fish-out-of-water there as bad or worse than a gym climber in Joshua Tree on his first day outside.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
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The ole bowline on a bight is pretty handy for a quick toprope at times too.
The origin of roped climbing was simply an improvised method for getting around obstacles. The idea needed much trial and error. We have complicated things ever since. (Imagine that--we are 'civilized!')
If we can remember how stupid some of our mistakes were, having survived them as younkers, and talk about them, this helps everyone. But casting stones at the next gen doesn't help one bit. These stones are just being re-used; they are the same ones tossed our way when we were young and irritating. The young aren't always unwise, just inexperienced.
Real wisdom means using your experience AND those of others, regardless of their age. Learn by doing, learn from your mistakes, learn from others' blunders, too.
JStan's words are very well thought out. Werner's, too. I haven't read much more of this discussion but will do so.
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Sciurus
Sport climber
St. George UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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Sciurus -- "I guess someone over there felt it was time to put the younger generation in their place."
You did the original guessing, projection and making assumptions .....
Yup, I sure did, and was upfront about it. It was the impression that the article left with me personally (and clearly others felt different about it, which is only fair).
But why does that make me a stupid person?
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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Penalty slack...for being a whiney bi***...oh yeah I've gotten that many a times
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
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But why does that make me a stupid person?
You assume generalizations are meant specifically for you.
You guess and assume too much.
Concentrate and focus on what's important.
And it's not just only about you .....
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
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In the old days, climbing looked and felt dangerous, and we would climb with vigilance and fear and respect.
As a crusty old-timer myself, I would moderate that statement. When I was a noob, climbing felt dangerous. For the last forty-plus years, though, I've had to guard against overconfidence, because I lack the abject terror I had when doing my first leads.
This caused me to take a twenty-foot slide on a third-class section of the Arches a couple of years ago. That was surely a mistake even a beginner was too smart to make, and it had nothing to do with generational differences. It simply showed inattention.
John
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