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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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"I smiled because if Jack was here I know this bartender would've gotten a lesson."
classic :)
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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that is quite the two part story. thanks for writing it. ss
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fosburg
climber
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Thanks for posting this. Like many around here I'm sure, this accident cuts close to the bone, being someone who still enjoys climbing ice while also "getting along in years" and availing of modern leashless tools. All the best to surviving loved ones...
Let's do our best to keep each other safe in the mountains. It doesn't seem to me that any "mistakes" were made in this situation, just a fateful occurrence.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Well, and what would our dog Pisco have thought about that??? He's very sensitive, you know! :-) His "registered" name is Doble Pisco Sour....twice the fun in one package! :-)
A interesting dog note. Any time I go through Jack's stuff, either to reorganize, or box up, or whatever, Pisco gets REALLY upset. His ears go flat, and he looks at me with these super sad eyes that say, "where did he go, and what did you do with him, and why doesn't he come back?" Then he lets his tail hang and goes immediately to the bedroom and lays under the bed. Our furry friends grieve, too............
pam
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Pam,
I don't know you or Jack. Nor do I know anything about ice climbing. At the same time, I know the details and analysis are relevant in the rock climbing world too. Thank you for your understanding the need.
Bill L
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Bad Climber
climber
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I didn't have the pleasure or honor of meeting Jack, but we're all climbers here and human beings, and it is clear his passing is a loss for us all. I'd love to see more pictures of singular individual--and his wife, Pam, who sounds like an incredible person. I started losing it as I read her eulogy.
Peace.
BAd AKA Scott
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Scott,
There are lots of pictures of Jack from the original Jack Roberts RIP thread, and many more stories! :-)
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BMcC
Trad climber
Livermore
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Pam and Jon - thanks for sharing the 2-part story and your comments with us. Very sad and very moving. I took a steep ice clinic from Jack at Ouray a few days before his Bridal Veil Falls accident. Thoughtful instruction and good tips/pointers. Wish I could have gotten to know him better. -- Bill
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dfrost7
climber
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Beautifully written, Thank you for sharing such a personal account.. Condolences to the family and to you. Keeping you all in my prayers.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jon, your story takes me back to an accident I was involved in on Bridalveil a few years ago that was frighteningly similar to yours. Big leader fall on the 2nd pitch by a partner I never thought would fall off ice, flipped upside down and hanging below my belay, unconscious, serious injuries including a head injury. Reading your story takes me back to my own experience which looking back, was probably more traumatic than I ever realized.
I think one big difference was that my partner fell just a little below my belay. People talk about escaping the belay, but the reality is that when you're out with a great partner, you don't usually set up a belay in advance thinking that you'll need to escape it very quickly. Maybe that is a lesson, but in our case, I never needed to escape the belay as my partner was perhaps 10 feet below me. I was able to extend my tie in and hang off my belay ledge enough to get him upright and conscious. There was no one there that day at the base to help me; I was utterly alone in my responsibility to get my friend out of there, while he was in pretty bad shape. Once I got him up to the belay, I was able to lower him to the ground. I was horrified at the possibility of attempting to lower him to the ground and running out of rope, as I couldn't see where the screw was that had held his fall, and he was unconscious. (The weird bulges of Bridalveil make it nearly impossible to look up and see the 2nd pitch very well.) He ended up in Grand Junction where they could deal better with his head injuries than in Montrose.
I think ice climbing, to a certain extent defies the rules and lessons that we want to think exist in climbing. Yes, having a tether to a tool may stop a fall, but the movement with a tether is just cumbersome enough that I can imagine that it could increase the chance of a fall. Especially if one is desperately trying to get a stick at the very apex of one's reach, while rapidly pumping out.
I have never run out ice that much, but then again, I'm not as accomplished as the folks like Jack at the top of the game. I try to protect ice in a similar way to the way I protect rock, i.e. I overprotect. I can lead steep, sustained ice in good style, but to lead things like the money pitches on climbs like Curtain Call would be a step up over anything I've ever lead. Having watched Jack lead pitches, he looked so smooth, so efficient, so natural, and I suspect part of that impressive style was the fact that he didn't stop very often to place screws. I would argue that efficiency is also an important aspect of safely leading ice, and my need for lots of protection definitely holds me back. I like to believe that I can hold on to get the screws in that I need, but maybe I'm delusional.
If we thought about things enough, we would never be out there leading ice at all. It is by nature, unpredictable, inconsistent and dangerous. I have done my hardest leads by turning my brain off, something that is difficult for a guy that probably overthinks everything.
I do know that my situation on Bridalveil ended much better than yours, but that it could have easily ended worse. Your account of that day was very meaningful to me. I walked away from that climb with an eye that was swollen shut, because the rope whipped across my face when my friend fell, and a sense that I had done something wrong. I will never forget that.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Thank you, Jon, for your story. This was, indeed, very difficult on all of us, so I can't even imagine what it must have taken for you to have to recollect that awful day well enough to write this so well and movingly. Even now, words still fail me.
John
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I am convinced that on big serious routs teathers are a no brainer. the standard put down is that I've never dropped a tool in however many years of leashless climbing but the simple fact is the message boards usually have a few posts about lost tools and it only takes once to ruin your day. I can not speak for the commercial variety but my home made teathers held a top rope fall last year. I would not count on them to hold a fall but if the tool is sunk the way I typicaly sink to place a screw they have a good chance of saveing the day.
The teathers certainly are not a replacment for enough screws to keep you from hitting ledges and bulges.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Tradman, I believe that the risk of dropping a tool is the most valid reason for being tethered to tools. Personally, I question whether on a one pitch route with good solid ice, making leashless tools leashed is worth it. But on long routes, or short routes where conditions are unclear, it is a no brainer.
I try not to think of my leashes as backing me up in the event of a fall. Or for that matter something to hang on if the pitch is overwhelming me. On ice, it is important to keep a margin between what I can lead calmly and safely, versus what I could barely scrape through if I absolutely had to.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 11:31am PT
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Jack went from being distinctly anti tether as a matter of style and ethics to using them as he did on Bridalveil with Jonathon.
For what ever reason they failed to stop his fall. But there have also been any number of serious falls in the ice climbing community they have been stopped short with commercial or home made tethers....for decades.
I think the continued idea of tethers only needing to catch a tool is a bad idea. One that has kept the umbilical/tether from being developed into a more useful and safer accessory/tool.
Because most don't use a tether for just catching a tool. A simple shoe string will do for that.
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fosburg
climber
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I seem to be the only one I know who still carries a third tool. My current setup is Nomics without tethers and a Grivel mini-monster children's tool as a backup. It helps me feel more relaxed.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
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Thanks Coz. Not me with Jack when he died, but Jonathon. Sorry for the confusion.
Tethers? Ethics? Style?
Jack and I had that discussion a couple of times. I was actually shocked that he had just recently started using tethers. I've been using them all the way back to Terrodactyls. Just made sense to me on steep ice early on and the inability to put in good pro quickly. Now? It is a safety issue imo.
Having snapped the head off a tool in the middle of soloing a steep ice pitch with no 3rd tool...I know that feeling. It wasn't until the late '90s that I gave that habit up. I don't see the best of the modern tools break very often these days. So it doesn't seem like much of a risk to carry just 2. If you climb on the brand that has a current or receent history of failures? Get a clue and a third tool :)
Better style to climb leashless and no tether? Sure it is. Better style to climb leashless and ropeless as well.
I like to solo on ice. But I like to use tethers:)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, pam...
thank you for sharing your lovely story here...
thank you too for werner stepping in, as to his experience in such things...
also:
as to losing consciousness and not remembering...
mini seizures can do that... they are far more comment than folks
understand... folks that NEVER had a history of any kind of seizure can have that happen, and they are too tiny to ever discover by looking at the brain... there intesity has to grow over time, until activity is seen...
and of course, the other note:
mini strokes, exist as possiblities, out in the world, as well...
though those can be detected better, later...
both would cause not remembering or knowing, what happened or how one fell...
the only needed note on that, if either was the case, is:
it is nice to know that someone like jack WAS doing his very best,
and shining in fine style and safety...
and went down by a matter that could just not be helped at said moment...
ps:
wow pam,as to this... more crying for us senstive folks:
A interesting dog note. Any time I go through Jack's stuff, either to reorganize, or box up, or whatever, Pisco gets REALLY upset. His ears go flat, and he looks at me with these super sad eyes that say, "where did he go, and what did you do with him, and why doesn't he come back?" Then he lets his tail hang and goes immediately to the bedroom and lays under the bed. Our furry friends grieve, too............
pam
*if you ever wanted a quilt done, too, just email me...
perhaps even for the ol' pupdog...
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
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Hey neebee..quick question for you or someone else reading may know.
Would a mini seizure allow one to keep both their tools firmly in hand during a long fall?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, RDB... i will do some checks on that...
when my grandbabe had hers, (though hers were not mini) her fist grip
tightened up... she had two fist shapes, each hand...
the muscle contract, *depending on the type of seizures)...
but--i will check on this...
after a LARGE seizure, though, when the body had finished and completely
goes limp (they look like they are dead, sometimes) the
hand may fall open...
edit: there are some partial complex seizures, where a person will have one, and actually walk OUT of stores, carrying things and NOT even
know that they are having a seizure... (folks think they are stealing, and or, drunk, etc)...
i do not know, as to the mini seizures, they are so MICRO split
second... a person CAN have one right in front of you
and YOU will not even know it...
you will THINK that they just were 'off in thought' for a split
second, or any etc...
be back soon, i don't want to put out any false info, so
will find more on the mini-seizures...
this is what is so dangerous about them...
a young boy, in this area, years back, just keeled over into the water, right in front of his friend, when fishing...
there were nearby boats of folks that witnessed it, so they know there was not foul play... his friend tried to find him and get him out...
by the time they did, he had drowned...
after an autopsey they (in his case) had found that he had been having seizure activity for a long time...
his folks said they never saw him have any kind of seizure, but:
they were thinking of the full blown, or more commonly seen ones...
they did say a few times they thought he was not paying attention to something, but those again, were split second things, and, as we all know,
we ALL DO THAT... the difference though, with a seizure the PERSON will not remember or know that they were NOT paying attention, whereas,
those just 'fast day dreaming' or pre-occupied or etc, WILL have
heard what is going on, and will know that they intentionally
were tuning things out...
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
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"when my grandbabe had hers, (though hers were not mini) her fist grip
tightened up... she had two fist shapes, each hand..."
Pam and Jonathon have heard this all from me previous. So no surprises here. Thanks for the thought. I'm obviously just looking for some answers we'll never have.
But 60'+ of air time and a not so soft catch with a tweaked knee, and still holding onto both tools?
The "off" mentally and two "tight fists" make perfect sense to me. I was convinced the first time around. I also think Jack had a clue...but not fully aware of the circumstance/ health situation hence the recent adoption of umbilicals.
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