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10b4me
Trad climber
Poserville
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Jun 13, 2006 - 04:10pm PT
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fwiw,
I took a thirty foot somersaulting lead fall at Tahquitz a few years back. Now that played with my lead head. A few years later, I took a fifteen footer at Williamson rock when a hold broke. I was fortunate in that I didn't break anything in either fall. Everybody wants to climb hard, but ask yourself, do you want to climb hard, or have fun?
I just got back from the Valley. I took a couple of co-workers that are new to climbing. This would be their first time on a multipitch, and their first time on rappel. I chose Aunt Fanny's Pantry. Sure it's easy, but you know what? It's also fun(imo).
Bottom line, have fun, push yourself if you choose to, and don't worry about what other climbers say.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 13, 2006 - 05:10pm PT
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MC, Did you break your knee falling on purpose??? If so that is a huge bummer. I didn't buy into that warriors way BS. I was a warrior for well over 20years 4th dan and all that chop suey crap. Warriors die young!! If you train at a high level you will have injurys. the way of the warrior is to chose death and therefore live to see another day, if you chose life over death you shall perrish. The ignorant will laugh at me but the wise will understand. Mostly a bunch of crap. (with a lot of truth to it as well) Yes it is Vital to know how to fall. practice this on a steep smooth rt in a controlled manner onto a big fat bolt in a situation where if the bolt fails you still won't hit anything. Don't pitch on a trad rt just for fun! Many years ago I got pretty comfortable on trad and started pushing myself and maby trusting my gear a bit too much. One day I simply let go to take a short fall on to an rp to rest. It ripped and i got hurt. thing was i was just trying to save energy that I would have wasted downclimbing to the gear. You have to be able to asses the risk and know when its ok to fall and when it is not. Chances are that on anything other than a steep sport rt you do run some risk of gear failuer or other unforeseen bad thing happening. Remember that Arno is from the south east where the huge roof rules!! Pitch and hit nothing but air! many other places are not as friendly. Most of the time a fall is not as bad as you imagine it will be, often it is totaly soft and cushy and you wonder " why the heck was I so scared to just huck the move?" Then you get complacent and casual about falling untill you have that one fall that is way worse than expected and everything can change permantly in an instant! I climb because I love the mountains, I don't climb to be superman!! If you just go out and have fun on your favorite routs and log a bunch of injury free miles it will come back and you will find yourself climbing better and maby even harder than you did when you had something to prove!!! Good luck :)
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MikeL
climber
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Jun 13, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Tradmanclimbs wrote: ". . . didn't buy into that warriors way BS. I was a warrior for well over 20years 4th dan and all that chop suey crap. Warriors die young!! If you train at a high level you will have injurys. the way of the warrior is to chose death and therefore live to see another day, if you chose life over death you shall perrish. The ignorant will laugh at me but the wise will understand. Mostly a bunch of crap. (with a lot of truth to it as well)"
I don't know that you learned everything about the warrior's way, TMC. A warrior's way is chivalry, plain and simply. It's not about choosing death. I'd suggest looking through a little book originally written in 1905 by Inazo Nitobe, called, Bushido. It's all about being a warrior in the eastern tradition. You can find it at:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080483413X/qid=1150236966/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-8768216-2792950?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
The warroior's way has also been written about by a female Tibetan Buddhist Abbot, her teacher, as well as Ilgner and others.
MikeL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 13, 2006 - 07:05pm PT
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See chapter Thirty one of the tao Te Ching. that pretty much sums up the cost of war. I trained and taught the martial arts for well over twenty years and finaly realized that no mater how you sugar coat it or how spiritual the sensei or sifu pretended to be they all had egos involved and it all comes down to combat in the end. my style is better than yours and if you step out onto my dojo floor you will see. Most will never admit this and go to great lengths to pretend that they have no ego but at the end of the day no martial artist likes to look bad out there on the floor and most enjoy putting hurt on you if you are strong and talented enough to be a worthy oponent. the chooseing death over life coment comes from a zen master. i forget at this point who it was but suspect that it was Ken Sei Miyamoto Musashi. A really smart and wise warrior that liked to bash his oponents brains in with a stout stick rather than a real sword as he was so good that a real sword was an unfair advantage to him. I belive that he said something allong the lines of, " when a warrior leaves the house expecting to return he will perrish, when he leaves expexting to die he will return safley" this has been discussed in lenght by many of these guys who felt that when given the choice between life and deth in battle the warrior that chose death would be victorious while the warrior who chose life would get his a$$ spanked. There are many situations where this crosses over to climbing. A scary dangerous move that the warrior flashes because he is not concerned with death. the same move a diferent climber who wants desperatly to live gets a bad case of sewingmachine leg, spits off and is FUBAR. Its a high stakes game though and if you chose to play that way the stakes are literaly life and death. I prefer to be a bit more laid back these days and not get on too many routs with those kind of decisions to make:)
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 13, 2006 - 07:17pm PT
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You can't in all fairness talk about Arno Ilgner's Warrior's Way in the same sense that you do the other combat-based warriors. Arno brought in a ton of other stuff from many sources and it adds up to an impressive modlity if you actually follow it. And you need not do any climbing at all to be on that particular path.
JL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 13, 2006 - 07:31pm PT
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Absolutly correct, especialy as I have not read his book. we did have a nice lengthly debate a few years ago though via email that ended in a draw as i recall:) No blood spilled!! I still contend that in a fall, just like with a football pass, three things can happen and two of them are bad. #1 everything is smooth, the gear holds, nice soft catch and you get a rest. You fire back up there with no fear and send:) #2 gear holds but you hit something and get hurt or your belayer gets yanked into something and gets hurt or lets go and you both get hurt. #3. the gear rips or breaks and you get hurt. That leaves me with the choice of not falling unless it is painfully obvious that the fall is totaly safe or the rout means enough to me that i am willing to risk injury or death to send.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 13, 2006 - 07:36pm PT
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MikeL you are giving me so many cool things to investigate.
Thanks
Jeff
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arnoilgner
climber
la vergne, TN
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Jun 13, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
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Hello Mac
Interesting posts... I think Largo said it all when he suggested you listen within and see where you are directed. We all tend to get lost around middle age (not suggesting you are middle age) because we've been chasing the wrong stuff. If we can get quiet, breathe, and look within we usually find some answers that can truly direct us.
One comment about the warrior's way, whether that be what I've written or other authors. It isn't an agressive, combative approach to life. Actually, it is the opposite. You can think of the "warrior" in the context of archetypes. The warrior archetype is, at least partially, the archetype we act through when we need to be courageous. Climbing requires us to be courageous, doesn't it? Being courageous boils down to the ability to focus attention on the difficult task at hand. This is the essence of the warrior's way--focusing attention. How can anyone be against something so benign as focusing attention?
Perhaps this helps?
arno
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MikeL
climber
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Jun 13, 2006 - 10:28pm PT
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TMC, ever hear of “The Law of the Small Instrument?” That law says: “give a child a small hammer, and he’ll find that everything he encounters needs hammering.”
If you see most of the important things in life as a martial contest, then there may be many things that you won’t be able to see or do.
“Ego” is a particularly Western term, and it is a poor one when it comes to talking about chivalry. The term we need is selflessness, and it’s not quite the same idea as being without an ego. Selflessness includes ideas like rectitude or justice, benevolence, politeness, veracity or sincerity, honor, and a deep sense of duty (in Bushido).
If you’ve read Go Rin No Sho (Musashi’s book), then you’ll see those things in the background of his writing. The idea is to live in the present moment with a strong and clear mind. Of course Musashi believed in action and winning absolutely, but he also believed in intuition, practice, adaptability, flexibility, timing, deliberateness, having great personal bearing, seeing things clearly, and finding a great sense of advantage in an environment.
In “Hagakura,” Yamamoto said that the way of the samurai was, indeed, found in death, but that statement must be contextualized to the samurai’s time and role in Japanese society. Yamamoto also said that: “by setting one’s heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way.”
In Kendo, we had a term called, “Ai Uchi,” which meant a tie when each opponent struck the other at exactly the same time. Ai Uchi also has deep Zen connotations, for an opponent gives the kindest cut of all when he cuts his opponent at exactly the same moment that he is cut. It means no anger, perfect balance, and no duality. Musashi’s book talked about how to avoid the duality of subject and object, and even time itself. (The last chapter in Musashi’s book is “The Book of the Void,” a book that almost defies explication unless a reader has experience in Zen.)
Ilgner and the others talk about these very same things in their own way, but they talk about them in different contexts.
It’s true, gaining one’s aim is very important in battle, but there was so much more to a life of chivalry in the way of the warrior, much more. If you only see them that way, I think you greatly diminish them.
For me, all these ideas point to what certain people thought it meant to be fully human and virtuous.
MikeL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 13, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
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Arno, the climbing in mushin is excelent. getting rid of the 10,000 things is why I climb. fear is in fact your ememy when climbing. you still have to be realistic of your abilitys when climbing though. The results of bad judgement or over confidence may be permanant and fatal. That is why i like the suggestions of many of the posters, myself included who recomend lots of miles on easy leads. what better way of becomeing one with the rock and finding the right mental place on lead than by reppitition of a simple excercise. In this case movement over stone well within the climbers comfort zone. Keep it up and the comfort zone will get harder without conciously trying to push a grade. The beef that i had with your way was about intentionaly falling. maby your stance has changed on this? I have troubble with the theory myself as I agree that knowing how to fall is crucial. Out on the dojo floor the ground is your friend. One of the reasons it was so much fun to toss taKwon Do chumps arround back in the day was because they didn't know how to fall:) But on the other hand i have had some bad experiences and seen some nasty falls in the climbing realm. If you don't fall climbing nothing bad can happen. If you do fall?????
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 13, 2006 - 10:53pm PT
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Mike. there is a ton of great stuff in all the Bushido teachings and zen teachings. I am really rusty on that stuff as I walked away fom it cold turkey eight years ago and never looked back untill a few weeks ago. It was like closeing the cover of a book and forgetting most of what was in there. The year i quit the acadamy where I was one of the senior Instructors I climbed 190 days. It felt so much more real to me than a bunch of people pretending to be warriors. One of the big problems I have with bushido is that all that honor, respect and humility only counted for the royal class. samurai routinly practiced their sword cuts on peasants who pissed them off while they were besotted with rice wine and god forbid that a yankee goes into a japanese Dojo but they don't have to try to teach you a lesson. In the end its all ego and war. they don't call it martial arts for nothing.
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MikeL
climber
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Jun 14, 2006 - 12:06am PT
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I hear ya, TMC. Someone once said something like, "many are called, but few are chosen." It's really hard to find someone with a right attitude and a pure heart. I haven't given up on looking for them. I guess that makes me pretty naive.
MikeL
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 14, 2006 - 12:19am PT
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This is the best thread ever.
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HiAzTy
climber
Cayucos
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Jun 14, 2006 - 01:46am PT
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maybe your just too in your head when you climb...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 14, 2006 - 03:09am PT
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I think there is a certain wisdom in not assuming what the goal or the lesson is.
You are faced with a certain state of mind.
Look at it.
Look at your life.
Look within.
Digest those things a bit and, after considering what folks have written above...
do whatever rings true
Peace
Karl
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2006 - 12:29pm PT
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This really is a great thread.
Arno wrote: "We all tend to get lost around middle age (not suggesting you are middle age) because we've been chasing the wrong stuff. If we can get quiet, breathe, and look within we usually find some answers that can truly direct us."
I really think this might be the sum of the problem for me. I went to the bouldering gym yesterday and went through the motions, but if something aggravated my falling-off thumbnail or I just wasn't feeling it, I'd just drop off. I liked being there more for the friends than for the climbing. My focus may have just shifted in life. I'm not using climbing to chase glory anymore, and the drive to improve is waning. Hmm.
Also, about falling on purpose, yes, I actually did break my knee falling on purpose, but I wouldn't blame Arno's book or philosophy on that. Falling is a part of climbing if you want to really improve and I accept that. I don't have a single accidental leadfall in my climbing record except once when I blew a hook on aid making a stupid mistake. I know that I have a problem with fear of the unknown, so making falling known is fine. Art was there. I smacked that sucker and it started swelling and bruising immediately and everyone told me to keep climbing and ignore it so I wouldn't be "ruined" and I finished off the route, if I remember correctly. It hasn't made me any more afraid of falling - I just think I need to learn how to fall better. If anything, it taught me how hardy I am, smacking my knee full on into the rock only cracked it, and now it's numb. Nothing earth shattering. I climbed on it for a week before throwing in the towel.
If your fears are unwarranted, face them. That is NEVER bad advice, in my opinion.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 14, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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For some people the idea of being a climber (outdoors, adventure, trust in friends, being outside the herd) is more important than the actual climbing. For some the movement over stone and the challenge that movement provides is what's important and all the rest just comes along with being a climber. You need to decide if you want to be a climber or just like the idea of being one. There is a huge difference. Neither is better than the other, it is just what you are.
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spyork
Social climber
Land of Green Stretchy People
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Jun 14, 2006 - 01:11pm PT
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I like shorttimer's comment:
"For some the movement over stone"
For me that epitomizes the reason why I climb. It doesn't need to be really hard, or classic. For me it is the being outside and moving over the stone. Lead or follow are both good.
I found myself no longer interested in the gym. The social aspects do not intrigue me for some reason. I haven't climbed much at all with my friends from the gym lately, I think for the basic reason that I can't find what I am looking for at the gym.
Somewhere in my reading to attempt to be a parent, I read that little boys are spatial/visual. They need to be outside with room to move around. I spend too much of my time cooped up in a small office. Some people would find it strange that I am at my most calm when hanging off some cliff gazing out at the horizon. I guess I haven't moved much past the little kid stage.
Steve
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arnoilgner
climber
la vergne, TN
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Jun 14, 2006 - 01:29pm PT
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Hi TMC
Your comment: The beef that i had with your way was about intentionaly falling. maby your stance has changed on this? I have troubble with the theory myself as I agree that knowing how to fall is crucial.
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My "stance" has changed but only in how I detach from the rock. ha ha... Anyway, no, I still firmly believe that if you do not practice falling you will be afraid of the possibility of a fall. This absolutely DOES NOT mean everyone should practice falling. It all depends on what you want from climbing. Many climbers I know like the feeling of climbing in control and not falling. Others like pushing their abilities more by pushing past the point of no return and taking a fall. It all depends on what you want. But, don't take the former approach (not practicing falling) and expect to improve in the grades.
It seems pretty basic that we must push past what we "think" we can do in order to realize what we can do. Olympians in all sports do this. You don't see a pole vaulter NEVER knocking the bar off. They knock the bar off more than they don't. This is the equavilant to falling in climbing. If you want to improve you must push the limits and in climbing that will absolutely involve falling sometimes. If you aren't familiar with something (like falling) you will tend to be afraid of it and have attention distracted to that fear. With attention distracted you will absolutely be less effective climbing. I would venture that any 5.14 climber has fallen a lot. That should be a clue.
I never said climbing way safe. It is dangerous. However, we can imtigate that danger with practice and learning. Falling is part of climbing. There probably isn't a single climber out there that hasn't fallen in some form. Some may have only fallen on toprope but it was still a fall. Given that, we must find a way to embrace falling instead of resisting it even if that embrace is to assess it as well as possible and then not push past our ability and take that fall.
best regards,
arno
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 14, 2006 - 01:33pm PT
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MAC...everybody goes through this. JL said it all when he pointed out that the rocks will still be there when you are ready. Climbing is not always about fun but rather a way to expolore your soul, just to see who you really are when you strip away the BS.
So please grab that other SLO chick and come hit the rocks with us this summer...it will be fun.
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