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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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Lance, IIRC the Sierra Club lost its status as a 501 (c)(3) in the 1960s, due to its stance on damming of the Colorado River and tributaries. It may still have some intermediate status as a non-profit, but no more.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 30, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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The NPS should have declared that thing a Utility Corridor when they were drawing their wilderness boundary maps.
yeah. w/o getting into the archive, my guess is that the the current lines came about partly as a result of the lobbying pressure from outside advocacy groups and partly from the desire of NPS admin to maximize discretionary control over popular climbing areas-- 1/2 dome and el cap.
you could see this coming once usfs implemented the lottery on whitney.
worse, there's no argument in favor of a lottery (or ban) on half dome cables that cant be extended to Regular NW face or to every route on El Cap, for that matter.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 30, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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I'm guessing the biggest reason they're doing an EA is because they've decided a quota-based permit system is the only plausible solution, and they HAVE to do an EA on a new permit system.
seems plausible.
eventually, one of the lobbying groups is going to sue. then we'll get to see historic preservation and wilderness preservation go head to head in federal court.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 30, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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From a wilderness point of veiw , the cables suck and are an accident waiting to happen..On the other hand it gets people out in the back-country for exercise and maybe wins some support for Yosemite..? Leave em up under the heading , Historical use...RJ
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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The only people who would mistake the area around Half Dome for a wilderness are Californians and other city people.
Rok, you're an idiot and unbelievably ignorant. Time and time again you've shown yourself to be completely misinformed.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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do you think the holes for the poles would take a pretty good green cam?
Maybe an orange TCU
Have you guys ever climbed at Courtright? Straight in holes are ideal Tricam placements.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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Once they have a preferred alternative good luck getting anything else to happen.
I think the 300 permits a day is a good compromise. Except 15 to 30 should be first come first serve the morning of the previous day at the wilderness center.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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you could see this coming once usfs implemented the lottery on whitney.
Holy sh#t there's a lottery for Whitney!? I am NOT up to speed on my Sierra Nevada stuff. Anything you want to know about Utah wilderness issues, though, and I'm your guy.
then we'll get to see historic preservation and wilderness preservation go head to head in federal court.
This would be a policy wonks' dream scenario, and would be incredibly fun to watch. Natural Resource Managers, Cultural Resource Managers, and Facilty Managers have been duking it out behind closed doors for decades.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 30, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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I sent my comment to the half dome planners " have a member of YOSAR at the cables each day, the YOSAR person gets a little money and Yosemite has someone there to save some poor fool if they get in trouble ". like that poor women who tried to come down with numb hands and almost died after falling. The crazy thing was she fell out of the cables where one of the boards had come loose or broken. The cables can be a real scary place for noobs when the conditions are not perfect. It reminds me of the wealthy noobs that climb Everest they can do it in good weather but in bad weather they die.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
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Hey Scooter, where did you get your 5.6 rating? I got mine here. ¥eah, its steep, but apparently the rating system changed over time. Old school 3rd class meant a rope should be carried along. Class 4 meant ropes and belays should be used.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 31, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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5.6 or 4th class?
Both are right. That's actually a good example of normal grade inflation over 57 years.
I've led it twice w/o the cables, and 5.6 is what I've called it, with my modern-grades voice. It's also "R" rated, but the runouts feel less than R in commitment because it's so low angle for roped leading.
No need for cams in the old drilled holes, BTW. Plenty of natural features to trad anchor to, including ledge belays. I've led under the cables on traverses -- not touching any part of the cableway structure, just for fun -- but you could easily stay on either side.
The rest of the controversy I'll comment on later. This is just addressing the factual stuff of actually climbing that side of the dome.
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Stefan Jacobsen
Trad climber
Danmark
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Jan 31, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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The cables aren't pretty that's for sure, and 1200 a day are way too many for even a remote feeling of wilderness. Even the suggestion preferred by the NPS of 300 a day will not make it wild at all, but make it exclusive to those walking tourists that manage to place reservations months in advance. I'm in favor of cutting the cables, but will let it be up to the local community.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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All this mumbo jumbo drool here as usual.
Blah blah blah this and that.
Leave those cables alone,
or there will be a beat down in the camp 4 parking lot .....
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 31, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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Yeah, leave 'em up AND add a third one. Junk the reservation system and open it up to all comers.
Death rate will go down 90%. The clusterf*ck will abate. And people's hopes and dreams of standing on top of HD will be realized. Ordinary people. They get to dream too, ya know. It is quite thoroughly badass to climb (nearly) a vertical mile, hike 16 miles round trip and face your fears to go up the slippery cables. Earn their beer on the Pizza Deck at twilight just like us.
It's not wilderness anyway. I mean Wilderness. Hasn't been for decades. Not by our definition anyway, though it gives most of them bragging rights equivalent to wrestling a griz. It's all relative. And they vote, every one of 'em.
Would have been way simpler if back in the planning process they had left that corridor out of the legal wilderness. Same place the feel of it leaves it for us.
And, yeah, Mt. Whitney too. Same exact deal except there the regulations are more badass. Very expensive tickets.
I've stood at the base of the cables all day with a video camera (yes, with a permit) and heard some of the most aspirational stories. An Australian guy returning after a dozen years to fulfill his dream. A German girl sobbing with fear of going up the cables, and then damn she did it. It gives one thoughts about the human spirit not fit to print on this jaded Forum.
I've also seen many foreigners who had journeyed halfway around the World turned away from Mt. Whitney. They know nothing of our idea, and our law, of Wilderness. They just walk away disappointed. And the political constituency for Wilderness shrinks. Same is starting to happen on HD.
Nobody here will be adversely affected by a third cable or by twice as many people on the trail up there. We get to go tickle the dragon's toes in way that only we know how. They get to have the experience of a lifetime.
Or they get denied.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 31, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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5.6 or 4th class?
Would a permit be needed to climb that side of the dome if the cable route wasn't used?
g
EDIT: Probably 90% of the many times I've tromped up the trail and cables were spur of the moment trips. I miss having that option.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 31, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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Hear Hear Sir Robinson!
As much as I hate to admit it, the 3rd rail is the best option.
We can't put that cat back in the bag, Baby. You'll get commandos in Army boots trying to lick their way up that slab, only to need a heli rescue (or worse) to get down.
Not all places on Earth are meant to have easy access. But one of the most recognized mountains in the world, after being open to all, won't get closed in our lifetimes.
Be happy that you know the real score of getting up there, and be happy that others get to touch God's country, even if it does take a helping hand.
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Jan 31, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Gimmeslack- You are absolutely right about that. I know Jim and went to high school with his sister in law. To hear them talk about Carl's experience on halfdome is amazing! Stories like this is why the cables should stay up.
Eric
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Gene
climber
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Jan 31, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
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It's ALL the Touron GLOVES and Trash
at the base of the cables that does.
Cosmic,
Didn't you carry down about 300 lbs. of that sh#t from Half Dome after rescuing 64 people during Facelift?
I agree with you 100% about all the gloves and stuff.
g
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 31, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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+1, gimmeslack!
And Rox, you have made your feelings about "Kali" [sic] crystal clear. Everybody who still pauses to read your posts (a steadily dwindling number, I imagine) gets it. We understand. You have a deep-seated, pathological dislike of the bulk of people who inhabit the state, and what they represent to you.
Might want to get a new chewtoy to thrash with! Just sayin'.
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