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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:44am PT
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I Am a bit of a noob. I feel good a put my placements and confidently climb 7,8, and 9's. But I lead every pitch because my wife is just not mentally there yet. When you lead every pitch, I dont see any better way than some sort of cord config. For the top out, I nearly always clove into a couple pieces, but for every other belay I tote around my two cordalettes. I don't see a faster way. I would love to cut the cord so to speak.
I dont see how anchoring in solely with a rope is superior in this situation.
Btw, no matter what you all say I am still bringing doubles to at least 2 in's, call me a coward.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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Positive reinforcement? Or total as#@&%e? You decide.
If I see you out there Justin, I'm encouraging you. Do as you think best.
If and when you live, we'll discuss your choices.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:57am PT
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"Gimme thirty seconds....belay's almost ready!!!!"
"Climb On!"
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:59am PT
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rokjox, was that directed at me? I was 100% sympathetic to your view when applied to swinging leads. I have hip belayed before on many occasions kayaking and canyoneering, hell I have even rappelled with that over the shoulder and under the crotch method...never again. But when your wife doesn't want to swap leads, I don't see how building an anchor with the rope is best practice.
I can go over my outdoor resume with you, and like you I have traded in some of my 9 lives for some serious whitewater antics. But when I am climbing with my wife, I am just happy to get freaked out on lead with her in tow. I don't think the Middle kings or Upper Cherry with her is in the cards any time soon.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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I just got back from Reel Rock film tour - I think I'm just going to skip this whole anchor business and join the race up the nose. Less gear, less worries.
I started this thread looking for anchor rigging idea/options using the rope - I've already read the equalette-cordelette extension vs equalization vs WTF many times over. Didn't need this thread to rehash it - oh well, they get a life of their own sometimes.
Zander thanks for trying to keep the thread on track.
I do get that having bomber pieces are the first and most important part of a solid anchor. I've felt comfortable with the ones I've built so far. I'm looking forward to swinging leads with someone in the future to try out rope only rigging. Multi-pitch might be done for a while unless I make it to Red Rocks this winter, unfortunately.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Nov 10, 2011 - 02:15am PT
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Rokjox. I appreciate that, and I regret my now deleted post...hope you didn't see it.
I wish I lived in ID, and had family there. It is my shangri la. But you must take up Kayaking, no finer place outside of CA that is. California has too much baggage though, so it may be the finest.
It has the best overnight+ wilderness moderates in the country for kayaking.
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justin01
Trad climber
sacramento
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Nov 10, 2011 - 02:35am PT
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Yeah I am pretty pleased that she puts up with my antics. Occasionally there is some crying, but at least with girls, they keep going. Guys on the other hand, when they start crying, its all over. You are screwed. I think girls are more durable sometimes. She can hike me into the dust!
Climbing is perfect, because I can scare myself to my hearts delight. She is totally happy, as long as the weather is good, and its not getting dark. Epics and wives do not mix.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Nov 10, 2011 - 10:26am PT
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Settin' up your anchor w/ doubles can be so fast, and easy to equalize, eh.
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Nov 10, 2011 - 11:47am PT
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Not my photo, but I've used simple setups like this when gear placements are good. Belaying off the anchor is good sometimes and some people I climb with demand it. This is a near-perfect setup off two good bolts. Other times I've felt the need for something a bit more complicated.
We all manage risk in our own way... but actively managing it seems better to me than just doing the same thing all the time because that "thing" is what we think is "the right way."
I usually use a tether to attach to my 1st piece or to one of the bolts when arriving at the belay. Then the tether is the last thing off, either when breaking down the anchor to follow the next pitch, or when getting ready to lead the next. I know, tethers are stupid single purpose items that get in the way. And they do get in the way. But more than once I've used my tether to replace some tat or such.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Nov 10, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
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Tom, that's funny you posted a pic. of the Rurp Belay, as I was thinking of that as a great example of how to equalize the points of a belay anchor using clove hitches.
It's not that this discussion is important because of piles of dead bodies lying around, although if your buddy got the chop because an anchor failed you might think this to be a more worthy topic.
It's important because it is EASY to equalize, or nearly equalize the points in the anchor. It is also FAST. (I think Rgolds pic. upthread shows a very simple, fast and well-thought-out anchor.) If something can be done simply and quickly and makes the system even a little bit stronger, why not do it?
Surely having a nearly-equalized belay anchor is better than one that is not even close to being equalized. (In the pic. of Bard on the Sea, imagine the potential consequences of one of the rurps blowing if there were three feet of slack between consecutive rurps.)
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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Is that configuration using a figure-8 and loading the loop dangerous? Isn't the 8 going to roll under very little force and that's why the figure-8 is the real death knot when loaded this way?
Or maybe that's an overhand? Still, I'd rather use a knot that is designed to have the loop loaded if I'm going to use it in an anchor.
Just wondering.
Dave
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 10, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Is that configuration using a figure-8 and loading the loop dangerous? Isn't the 8 going to roll under very little force and that's why the figure-8 is the real death knot when loaded this way?
Its a figure eight on a bite. Not two rope ends tied together.
Uhh, pretty bomber.
To answer your questions: no.
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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Go here:
Long/Luebben Advanced Rock Climbing
Start reading at page 84 or so... then go buy the book because it is a GREAT book and a fun read.
Page 86 has a nice example of a rope tie-in and refers to it as "preferred by both authors much of the time." The trick, then, is to figure out just what "much of the time" means to you as part of your risk management plan :-)
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
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I think that's called a zipper-o-lette anchor.
What makes this discussion tough is that some people have very strong opinions, but really don't understand the mechanics of anchoring, nor the concepts of redundancy, nor are they able to identify single modes of failure.
I've always been open minded on building anchors. I figure I can always learn something new and add another trick to my quiver.
One thing I've tried to learn and put into place after a decade plus of being involved in industrial safety is that simplicity and consistancy are very, very important. If you have a system that will provide 70-80% of the strength of the "ideal" setup, but your 70-80% deal is easy to setup and has no hidden failure modes, then it's 100 times better than a complex "ideal" setup that has some hidden failure modes and can be incorrectly setup w/o noticing it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
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I've studied this topic for ages and have come to these conclusions:
A), Owing to so few total anchor failures, there is little definitive information out there per real-world accidents, making it hard to reverse engineer things back to what does not work, ergo, what to avoid.
B), Equalization is somewhat obtainable with two pieces (the "Quad" comes closest, by far), but is only approximated, somewhat poorly, in all 3 and 4 piece arrays.
G), Equalization is only truly required when the individual pieces in an anchor are suspect and load-sharing becomes a factor. This happens VERY infrequently, especially on popular routes. IOWs, elaborate tie-in systems are rarely called for. Also, equalettes, and so forth take some practice to master, but become quick to build with some little experience - but again they are rarely needed.
H), Testing indicates that shock-loading does not happen as advertised, most likely because the distances involved are usually too short for the falling weight to generate enough velocity to greatly increase the load. However, limiting extension is probably more important than equalization.
I), Most all testing involves static loading, which is of limited value since a falling climber is not a static-loading scenario. Drop testing renders different results than static testing, but is far more involved to do.
J), Simple rigging set ups (anchor tie off) are by and large the way to go providing the primary anchors are sound. Tying off with the rope, though primitive, remains a viable method on most trade routes where the anchors are sound.
K), The number one concern in building any anchor is obtaining bombproof primary placements - the actual pieces in the anchor array.
L), The belay chain is best thought of in terms of a system to limit peak forces. In that sense, the top piece - the so-called "Jesus Nut," is ALWAYS the most important piece in the belay chain, since it always absorbs initial loading. To think of a belay anchor as the "top piece" is to misconstrue the system. Every climbing scenario is meant to avoid directly shock loading the anchor. You build a bomb-proof anchor NOT to absorb this shock loading as a matter of course, but to safeguard the extremely rare instance of the top piece blowing out and the anchor directly absorbing a factor 2 fall.
Set great primary pieces; keep it simple; get that bomber Jesus Nut is straight off; go for it.
JL
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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Its a figure eight on a bite. Not two rope ends tied together.
Uhh, pretty bomber.
To answer your questions: no.
How is this not identical to tying two ropes together? Loading the loop alone in two directions, not the loop against the tail(s), places force on the rope identical to two ropes tied together.
Let me explain; when you tie two ropes together, you end up pulling apart the strands that exit the knot. When you create a bight of rope and pull on the loop, you are also pulling apart the strands that exit the knot.
Pulling the strands one way and pulling the loop the other is a very different load model for the knot than just pulling apart the strands that exit the same side of the knot.
I hope I can get some more feedback on this because I recall a discussion a while back where people all agreed that pulling apart the strands that exit a knot on the same side would cause the knot to roll regardless of there being a loop or not.
Dave
edit to add this picture that shows the forces involved if the other piece blows:
edit to add this picture, with bad Photoshop job, showing the loop being loaded more clearly. This and the previous picture are the same thing except that this one shows the loop oriented differently to better show the problem. Sorry for mangling the knot in the picture but assume it's a proper figure 8.
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raymond phule
climber
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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One thing I've tried to learn and put into place after a decade plus of being involved in industrial safety is that simplicity and consistancy are very, very important. If you have a system that will provide 70-80% of the strength of the "ideal" setup, but your 70-80% deal is easy to setup and has no hidden failure modes, then it's 100 times better than a complex "ideal" setup that has some hidden failure modes and can be incorrectly setup w/o noticing it.
Sounds like you are talking about the cordelette.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 10, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
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Let me explain; when you tie two ropes together, you end up pulling apart the strands that exit the knot. When you create a bight of rope and pull on the loop, you are also pulling apart the strands that exit the knot.
Pulling the strands one way and pulling the loop the other is a very different load model for the knot than just pulling apart the strands that exit the same side of the knot.
I hope I can get some more feedback on this because I recall a discussion a while back where people all agreed that pulling apart the strands that exit a knot on the same side would cause the knot to roll regardless of there being a loop or not.
I still think the load paths are different. In a rappel situation, with the figure eight knot used to tie the ropes together, there is a risk that under a high load, the knot could roll. You're kinda not pulling the strands apart so much as pulling them in the same direction against a ring/rapide (maybe that's similar enough?). In the testing done that everyone references (Tom from Salt Lake), he pulled straight away on each strand which would no doubt simulated worse case. In all cases, the knot either rolled after a fairly high load, or, low then high them maybe failure (etc).
I just don't see the comparison for a figure eight on a bite. If the knot did roll (doubtful and maybe good for speading out peak force anyhow), where would it go? The ends aren't anywhere near. Climber is anchored to one side.
It just isn't the same situation.
One thing that's clear, though, is the guy that built that anchor, clearly, doesn't know what the f he's doing...I mean, just look, he's tied into a stack of friggin' rocks...
Cheers!
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 11, 2011 - 12:07am PT
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Simple...couple nuts, a biner, and a clove hitch.
It' no #3 Camalot, but...bomber!
Ha ha...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 11, 2011 - 09:32am PT
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In the system of mine posted by the OP, the strands can radiate out from the power point in any direction. Incorporating an upward directional is no harder and no different than than attaching to any other anchor point.
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