Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:30am PT
|
Steve, the 'Jills Thrill' descent is, and always has been the 'standard' S.E. Corner descent route
This is not true. Not "always" JH. As Steve says, the Jill's rappel showed up late to the party and it does make Beacon to be more of a corner little crag rather than the large and committing stone it use to be. There was not a rappel off the corner for quite some time. People would carry a second rope in any kind of questionable situation, as a double rope rap from the tree will get you to the ground in an emergency. Seeing a thunderstorm clear the Benson Plateau heading your way while dropping cold dark massive rain in the river would constitute one. Now people can bail off Young Warriors and not molest the tree in an emergency, hopefully they leave the tree alone. LOL
Beacon has had remarkably few fatalities, I have heard that the number is none from climbing since the 1901 route has gone in. An amazing thing if true, but I would doubt it's truth. If these rap anchors had not been in place, this young man would still be with us, what we don't know is how many other accidents would have occurred had the Jill's rappel bolts not been there. I'd be fine with them being gone and if a vote gets taken, add my name.
My heartfelt well wishes to all:
-Bill
|
|
froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:27am PT
|
Sincere condolences to friends and family.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 05:05am PT
|
Bill, true - I shouldn't have said 'always', but if 'late to the party' is '85 so be it. It was certainly well established by the time I returned to PDX in '87 and has been the defacto or 'standard' S.E. Corner descent route for well over twenty years whereas the tree and p2 anchor have never been more than a mistake in judgment or an act of desperation.
Again, and as you well know, Opdycke was on the descent he was during this incident for exactly that reason and any suggestion, either explicit or implicit, supporting or rationalizing rapping the tree is at this point or confuses where the standard descent route is simply compounds the problem and is less than helpful overall.
|
|
dr_climber
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:47am PT
|
Question: Wouldn't using an autoblock or prussik "third hand" also prevent an accident like this? I guess it might leave you hanging from your leg loop, but should hold the rope even if both strands aren't clipped through the ATC, right?
Sad to see accidents like this. Just trying to think about ways to prevent it from happening.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:55am PT
|
Odd
Question: Wouldn't using an autoblock or prussik "third hand" also prevent an accident like this? I guess it might leave you hanging from your leg loop, but should hold the rope even if both strands aren't clipped through the ATC, right?
I was thinking the same thing last night. Also, in rigging the Autoblock you'd likely realize both ropes weren't through your rap device.
I'm not, however, arguing that one should always use an Autoblock. As was discussed in another rap failure thread and early in this one, there are no Absolutes except ALWAYS double check before committing to a rap. As I've mentioned before, double checking saved my life once, I'm sure it's saved many many more.
|
|
Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 11:57am PT
|
My standard descent is the hiking trail at the top. Rapping is always one of my least favorite ways of getting off rock anywhere. I find rappelling repellent. I coach myself and talk it through every time and remember those that have fallen. Nate will be on my mind now as I rap. It sucks to be memorialized for a mistake or gear failure. My heart goes out to all those that loved this man. We will remember him at Beacon Rock as a strong climber that loved this unique place.
|
|
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
|
I was using a Grigri to rap off ZM this spring and was the last one down on the rope. I was sort of freaked, it was a clean 200 feet to the ground. I really, really spent some time looking at the system before I cast off.
Dang, it so sad to hear about accidents of this kind.
|
|
Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
|
It doesn't really make any difference which descent route this man was on. The mistake could just as easily happen on any set of stations. Tha family, friends and partner are still without him.
I am not advocating any action with regard to the descent routes. I am making it a point not to get involved in local crag management and politics in my new (12 years)home. From raising children, managing large staffs, and being involved with crag management for a very long time, I offered an answer to your question about why people do not do what you would like them to do.
Please be very careful about changes that might leave someone hanging out to dry. There are thousands of references to the anchors and descents on Beacon. It isn't a destination where I would normally consult with the internet to see if any changes were made in advance of going. In light of the conversation, I better start consulting before assuming that the rock and protection is the same as the last time I visited.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
|
I was using a Grigri to rap off ZM this spring and was the last one down on the rope. I was sort of freaked, it was a clean 200 feet to the ground. I really, really spent some time looking at the system before I cast off.
Mark, did you read the reason for the new GriGri 2 recall? Handle breaking resulting in loss of breaking. They had 7 instances of this failure I believe, fortunately all were in lower off mode, and the belayer was already breaking and just continued to use it as an ATC and no one died. I've never backed up a Grigri on a single rap, a practice which I have never read or heard of failing, yet had you, I or others carried this practice over to the GriGri 2 where a sudden snap and loss of braking power would have caused a huge amount of weight onto the rope in sudden and unexpected movement, may have resulted in a fatality.
(insert sweat on brow pic here) Not that you or anyone needs or wants to think of this while rapping ZM or any 200 foot free rap:-)
This might not be the best place to say this, but we're here and there it is. Apologize if it's too far off topic. BTW, I'm a tad yoinked that Petzl didn't change up the serial numbers in a radical manner. The old 2's look like the new ones and the S/N seemed to go in sequence without a break.
Regards and climb safe all -
Bill
|
|
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
|
It was an older Gri-gri. And, if the handle did break, the gri-gri would lock up, wouldn't it?
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
|
since Jills is his route
i will never understand some peoples logic when it comes to "ownership" of the rock... it was there for millions of years, some dude climbs a route and now its his? BS. show me title and deed.
|
|
Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
|
Kind of complicates management post mortem.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
|
Mark, I didn't quite get that right. More like this (copied and pasted)Excessive force may cause the handle to jam in the open position, thereby disabling the assisted braking function. According to Petzl, if the handle jams open the device will continue to function in a manner similar to a manual (tube style) belay device. Seven jammed devices have been received by Petzl with no reports of injuries. This is a good time to remember that belayers should always keep their brake hand on the rope when using any GriGri.
I wonder if just grabbing the line would stop a free rap. Up high you'd have the full weight of the rope below, probably be less safe the closer to the ground one got and the more weight you had on you. I really have no idea what would occur. It just struck me that we trust those dog gone things quite a bit...maybe excessively so.
|
|
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
|
Excessive force may cause the handle to jam in the open position
We should start a new thread. This is a good discussion but we shouldn't hijack this one. I'm roasting coffee right now, I'll try to move my comments in a few minutes or so.
|
|
mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
|
Sorry to hear about the loss :(
I'm always amazed at how a prussic back-up isn't used nearly every time someone rappels. I use one probably close to 95% of the time. It has saved my life before as well as my partners. It is a simple tool that EVERY climber should know how to do.
When I worked for the Yosemite Mountaineering School we taught people how to use a prussic backup in our second level class. To me it really was one of the most important things I taught.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
|
mikey,
I can't recall that using a prussic saved my bacon ever but it was sure nice
knowing it was deployed for quite a few launches into the unknown. I also
took a bit of wisdom from Uncle Fred and rarely went into the mountains without
a prussic loop in my pocket. It was: "Swiss Bitch - check. Prussic loop - check."
Since I never washed my knickers (quit giggling Tami!) the prussic lived in its dank pocket.
Of course, on one's hometown crag it is understandable to go without as you
are not launching into the unknown but that's where my Braille checklist
procedure still serves. Don't just look at it - touch it and give it a shake.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
|
In light of the conversation, I better start consulting before assuming that the rock and protection is the same as the last time I visited.
Nothing in this conversation has implied anything changing. No one is or has ever been 'left out to dry', but that's certainly more of a possibility if someone goes to the internet and finds confusion about where the standard descent route actually is.
|
|
Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:03pm PT
|
Perhaps it was an indirect comment, but the notion of Jill's anchors not being needed was mentioned. I can get a tad paranoid about anchors I am counting on being removed. I am not as "in the know" as others.
The mourning continues, and the sky is still weeping for Nate.
|
|
mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Jul 26, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
|
Reilly, your hometown crag is the place where everyone should be using a prussic. It is where people become the most complacent. When I'm rapping off of huge mountains I triple check everything cause I'm gripped. Not so gripped say rapping off of Serenity to Sons for the 15th time...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!