What do you Taco teachers think?

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JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 9, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
blahblah,

$250.00 per hour is not a particularly high billing rate these days, even in friendly Fresno. I charged more than that ten years ago, and was turning away business.

Litigation costs lots of money, and not just for legal fees. In a wrongful termination suit there would be expert witnesses galore, lots of depositions, and lots of lost time from work for district employees.

That's why I'm so critical of laws that make it easy to sue, and difficult to recover for malicious prosecution or abuse of process. The mere threat of a suit poses the following risk for a district:

1. The certainty of incurring costs of defense;

2. The certainty of divisive and often unflattering publicity;

3. The certainty of disruption of duties by other employees because of the need to participate in the case; and

4. The possibility of an adverse verdict.

Juries are very unpredictable bodies. In Fresno a few years ago, Fresno State fired the women's basketball coach. Her teams had a poor record, she stole prescription medications from the players, abused the staff (mostly women), and was despised by the players. Several players testified against her at trial. None supported her. She nonetheless won a multi-million dollar verdict because the jury decided she was a victim of gender discrimination. Admittedly, the insurance company defending the University had incompetent counsel until it was too late, but rationality seldom reaches the jury box.

That's the state of the law in California. Guess who helped make it that way.

John
wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
Todd, I agree with everything you say in the last post. That's why I don't think all teachers should get evaluated in some standardized way. That's no better than doing it to kids, which is of course, what we do.

I'm certainly not saying that I can describe exactly what a good teacher is . .
they come in many forms. I've worked with teachers over the years that probably were not as focused on the academic side as I am, but the lessons that person's students learned in their class were profound. That is a good teacher that deserves job security and a wage decent enough to live on, heck maybe even decent enough to plan a little for the future.

As to the "ineffective" teachers, I also agree with you that there should be due process. All of us should be constantly trying to improve ourselves by learning, and if an "ineffective" teacher is willing to do that, I totally believe they should be given a chance.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 9, 2011 - 08:39pm PT
Exactly, AC -- with some help from our unions.

John
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 9, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
Teachers are the problem.... That's the message being drilled into American's thick skulls in an attempt to banish unions...The right keeps bringing up the isolated example of the bad teacher while trying to characterise all teachers as bad so that the rich can pay less taxes...If you don't like working for the teachers union you can go teach at a private christian school where you can make 10 bucks an hr. or try working at wal mart....rj
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Apr 9, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
Well said, rottingj....(My son Beck's Kindergarten teacher taught at a private church school;.....about $8 an hour...maybe $10,000 a year with no insurance or retirement....and she was an awesome teacher...fully awesome;...but had no credential, and wanted to teach a class of 10 kids instead of a class of 30 kids.....).....this all started with the Kennedys.....smoking pot in the White House, sleeping with Movie Stars, driving drunk off of bridges, and giving all our hard earned tax money to crack heads on welfare...that is what we get for putting an Irish Catholic in the White House........................................
Captain...or Skully

climber
My ready room
Apr 9, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
I wish folk would realize that teachers & the public library are 2 of the most important things in our entire civilization. Honor the Teacher, for where do YOU go without teaching? Good luck with that.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 10, 2011 - 12:47am PT
I wish folk would realize that teachers & the public library are 2 of the most important things in our entire civilization. Honor the Teacher, for where do YOU go without teaching? Good luck with that.

Now that's something with which we should all agree.

John
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 10, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
TG...$10,000 dollars a year for a teachers salary is below the federal poverty level...How can any socially conscious American think that this is just compensation for someone that spent 6 years in college ?...The cost of living is skyrocketing....Gas , food , health care and utilities continue to become more unaffordable and the solution of the conservatives is to convince the taxpayer that their taxes are high because a small sector of the American working class are provided with health care benefits and a retirement pension...? a classic case of corporate brainwashing..The grocery stores pulled the same scam on the clerks unions...The first thing the corporate store owners did was convince the public that grocery prices would go down when the clerks' unions were weakened or totally dismantled...Vons had their way with the union and grocery costs didn't go down...suprise! Now the new employees at Vons start out at minimum wage with fewer or no benefits and need food stamps to supplement their meager wages as the taxpayers pick up the tab that Vons has weasled out of paying..This is the republican vision for America....Corporate welfare subsidised by the middle class and the ever-increasing indigent population...Yeah , so let's jump on the republican bandwagon , tar and feather the teacher's and their mafia controlled unions so we can save the taxpayers' trillions and create more jobs for the rest of middle class america...Nigger please...? rj
Tready

Trad climber
Syria
Apr 10, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
I think this issue primarily boils down to assessing a teacher's performance. Someone mentioned it earlier (I forgot who) in saying the school and administration "just know" who the good and bad teachers are. If you think about it, that's probably more true than we'd like to admit. However, in teaching, it seems to be harder to confirm that idea.

"Tim, you're not very good at building houses because, well, your last three houses fell down. We're going to have to let you go..."

"Tim, you're not a very good teacher because, well, you're just not..."

It's getting hold of that real solid data (I guess?) that is elusive when talking about teacher performance. The idea behind NCLB was good: hold the people in charge of a class room accountable for what happens in it. It's just how they went about it that was so stupid.

So, what are you going to do? Evaluations? How many times a year should I be evaluated and who is going to do it? Once or twice a year for forty minutes isn't really enough to get a good picture, though, again, I suspect a good administrator can tell pretty quickly.

Of course, student input is pretty important, but what kind? It would make sense to put a lot of emphasis on the ultimate result of, say, a senior AP economics course. After all, if a student is in that class, it is pretty clear he/she should be able to understand the material and succeed. It gets a little murkier when you're not dealing with high performance classes.

Should the parents' opinions carry much weight? I think most teachers and coaches will agree that parents can run the gamut from amazing to royal pain in the ass.

So, again, how do you accurately assess teachers? 50 million kids are enrolled in the k-12 US education system. It's a huuuuuuge system, and eliminating unions is not going to solve many (if any) problems.

I was initially going to end this by saying I don't have any solutions, and that it annoys me when people just point out the problem and leave it at that. However, I think I would be in effect, guilty of the same thing, so here are my 100% Guaranteed to Work Solutions that will no doubt solve all of our education woes:

1 – Reduce class sizes to around 20 for secondary classes.
2 – Make teaching a more financially lucrative profession.
3 – Extend the tenure requirement to five years.

None of those will happen, but getting rid of unions won't either...
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Apr 10, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
Education is an experiment;....people have been on earth for close to 4 million years;.....kids have been in the institution of school and public education for about 200 years.......someone thought it would be a good idea to get children together in one room and make them work and behave;......(whose brilliant idea was that?......).......is the experiment a success......for some yes;...for others....well.......
My six year old son Beck, who is an "academic" like his mother, said to me last week, "Dad...my three favorite times of school are recess, lunch, and going home time.....".......I think he is on to something.....

wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
The public education that we all have access to in the USA is the foundation of our democracy. If public education goes the way the right-wingers would push it, with enough time you can kiss our version of democracy good bye. If teachers do not willingly accept that they will ultimately get evaluated for their performance (in some meaningful way), I fear this will happen. (If you want to see what a presidential election looks like in a democracy where public education truly is a disaster, Peru just had theirs yesterday. That election will not be resolved soon.)

Todd, I can relate to what your son says. I'm a teacher that is occasionally accused of being "academic"; nonetheless my favorite months of the year are June, July and August.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 11, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
Don't have a lot of time . . .

But to begin to respond, especially to the haters within ST that don't have a clue, and who seem to have a rather different view of Catholic Nuns . . .

I have to respond to those who would buy into and be "fooled" by the GOP, Corporate America, and Rich Elite's latest attack strategy on Middle America, Unions, and Teachers, which by the way is the very essence of the Democratic Party and by far the strongest support for true democracy in the USA.

If you can read, write, do math, and you have learned mostly to share and do well by others, then thank a school teacher (even your Sunday School teacher if you had one).

Many have exposed what is really happening behind the scene in the USA today. The GOP, Corporate America, and the filthy rich elite are Hell bent on destroying democracy. They want a Feudal system of government. They want to be the Kings and Queens, and they want you to be their Serfs.

One of the strongest representations of democracy in the USA are the Unions. This is where they keep the playing field between the Workers Rights and the Employers Rights fair and equitable. They also support overwhelmingly the Democratic Party and Democratic ideals. The Rich Elite and the GOP hate that. They are all about the "Haves" and "Have-nots." That is the way they like it. They are evil, greedy, and manipulative.

So attack the middle class strength of America, the Unions and Teachers, and destroy them, and you have destroyed the progressive democratic movement for generations, not to mention dumbing down America even further so they have no way of getting ahead and a real education. Got to have the working Serf class after all don't we?

The Rich Elite can afford the most expensive private schools that don't even have to face any of the many hardships and obstacles that public education does. They get to pick and choose who attends and who doesn't. And guess what? No accountability with Federal or State standardized tests either. But even under these unfair made-up game rules, public education usually out performs these private schools and charter schools over and over again, year after year.

Read PhD Diane Ravitch's book:
The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education (New York: Basic Books, 2010).
http://www.dianeravitch.com/


Bad teachers usually self-select themselves out and leave the profession within the first 5 years. Teachers do not have tenure, they have due process as protected by their Unions. Without Unions you don't have due process.

If a "Bad" teacher is on the job, then that has a lot to say about the administration not doing their jobs. The due process steps are there. They need to follow them.

What sooo many of you don't get is that we have separation of Church and State. You can not fire someone for what happens to be their faith and belief system. As long as they keep it out of their job and out of the classroom, then you shouldn't care if someone believes in Santa Claus or not. It works both ways. The law protects both sides. You can't as a teacher push religion or a particular belief (faith) system in a classroom, and you have to show respect for all the other faiths of your students you'll likely encounter. This is a safe environment for all.


More later . . .
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 11, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
Chris Hedges: Why the United States Is Destroying Its Education System
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x597322



http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_the_united_states_is_destroying_her_education_system_20110410


Why the United States Is Destroying Its Education System
Posted on Apr 10, 2011
By Chris Hedges


A nation that destroys its systems of education, degrades its public information, guts its public libraries and turns its airwaves into vehicles for cheap, mindless amusement becomes deaf, dumb and blind. It prizes test scores above critical thinking and literacy. It celebrates rote vocational training and the singular, amoral skill of making money. It churns out stunted human products, lacking the capacity and vocabulary to challenge the assumptions and structures of the corporate state. It funnels them into a caste system of drones and systems managers. It transforms a democratic state into a feudal system of corporate masters and serfs.

Teachers, their unions under attack, are becoming as replaceable as minimum-wage employees at Burger King. We spurn real teachers—those with the capacity to inspire children to think, those who help the young discover their gifts and potential—and replace them with instructors who teach to narrow, standardized tests. These instructors obey. They teach children to obey. And that is the point. The No Child Left Behind program, modeled on the “Texas Miracle,” is a fraud. It worked no better than our deregulated financial system. But when you shut out debate these dead ideas are self-perpetuating.

Passing bubble tests celebrates and rewards a peculiar form of analytical intelligence. This kind of intelligence is prized by money managers and corporations. They don’t want employees to ask uncomfortable questions or examine existing structures and assumptions. They want them to serve the system. These tests produce men and women who are just literate and numerate enough to perform basic functions and service jobs. The tests elevate those with the financial means to prepare for them. They reward those who obey the rules, memorize the formulas and pay deference to authority. Rebels, artists, independent thinkers, eccentrics and iconoclasts—those who march to the beat of their own drum—are weeded out.

“Imagine,” said a public school teacher in New York City, who asked that I not use his name, “going to work each day knowing a great deal of what you are doing is fraudulent, knowing in no way are you preparing your students for life in an ever more brutal world, knowing that if you don’t continue along your scripted test prep course and indeed get better at it you will be out of a job. Up until very recently, the principal of a school was something like the conductor of an orchestra: a person who had deep experience and knowledge of the part and place of every member and every instrument. In the past 10 years we’ve had the emergence of both Mike Bloomberg’s Leadership Academy and Eli Broad’s Superintendents Academy, both created exclusively to produce instant principals and superintendents who model themselves after CEOs. How is this kind of thing even legal? How are such ‘academies’ accredited? What quality of leader needs a ‘leadership academy’? What kind of society would allow such people to run their children’s schools? The high-stakes tests may be worthless as pedagogy but they are a brilliant mechanism for undermining the school systems, instilling fear and creating a rationale for corporate takeover. There is something grotesque about the fact the education reform is being led not by educators but by financers and speculators and billionaires.” ............(more)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 12, 2011 - 02:37am PT
Shame on Michelle Rhee
By PhD Diane Ravitch
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-29/michelle-rhees-cheating-scandal-diane-ravitch-blasts-education-reform-star/#

A new report shows student testing irregularities in D.C. under the leadership of star education reform advocate Michelle Rhee. Education expert Diane Ravitch blasts Rhee’s misguided approach. Plus, Dana Goldstein says the report is no surprise.







The breaking story, in the original article in USA Today:

When standardized test scores soared in D.C., were the gains real?
By Jack Gillum and Marisol Bello, USA TODAY
Updated 3/30/2011 12:17:10 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2011-03-28-1Aschooltesting28_CV_N.htm?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4d8ff2dc3b0fe8d5,0










Michelle Rhea's approach is make it unrealistic high-stakes and to reward cheating and lying. They did it in Texas and it's what the fraudulent NCLB came out of, and is based on. Bush's failed system.

This is not reform. They (and she), are nothing more than cheaters and liars.

This is how they want to reform education? C'mon, this isn't reform. It's a ponzi scheme to collapse public education. Set the standards so high that no school will ever reach it: 100% proficient by 2014. You can't ever get any group of people to test at 100% proficient. It's impossible. Perhaps that was the real intention, so that every school in America looks like they are failing? In other words set public education up to fail, and attempt to make it look like the corporate business model works best and brings real results. When public schools fail under the new high-stakes game, then bring in the privateers. What a load of 100% USDA Bull Dung.

The corporate model doesn't work. It's smoke and mirrors. Students are not widgets being manufactured on a slave labor non-unionized assembling line.

Real education comes from real dedication and hard-work and full support. It also needs to be publicly funded at the levels we spent in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. That is when we had properly funded schools and full programs including the arts, and industrial arts. Hold schools accountable for meeting well thought out National Standards for all subjects, test at the end of the year (not months before the end of the year), and hold the student accountable by having these test results go on their permanent transcripts, just like any grade they earn is already recorded on their transcript. Want to see test scores go up? That will do wonders. Test scores now are used to falsely rank schools and teachers. When students are not held to account, but only the schools and teachers, students could care less. Some even go out of their way to screw-up their tests so the schools fare and look bad on purpose. Do some students think this way? They sure do. We teachers see this every year. Students have come to realize what these high-stakes test results are really used for.

I don't buy it and neither should you.




harihari

Trad climber
Squampton
Apr 12, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
Any educational researcher will tell you that standardised testing turns education into a rote game that discourages thinking and encourages teaching to the test. Google Alfie Kohn if you want layman-friendly explanations (his "How To Create Nonreaders" is a classic: http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/nonreaders.htm);.

The corporate right wants you to hate teacher unions, because this distracts from the real problem: US social problems-- poverty, lack of decent health care, lack of maternity/paternity leave, systematic racism, etc etc-- are factors which enormously affect learning outcomes. Many researchers have observed that report cards marks correlate pretty much exactly with the square footage of the houses students live in. Here is more Kohn on this topic (you can find loads of other research that broadly supports his conclusions): http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/staiv.htm

Looking at the real issues would mean raising taxes on the wealthy, ending stupid foreign wars, instituting real medical care not run by coporations, etc, all of which are anathema to the Washington business system.

And for anybody stupid enought to think that getting rid of unions, ending seniority etc, and having pure merit-based pay for teachers would make life simple, think again. There is TONS of evidence that doing this-- what "charter" schools typically do-- basically works for a year or two, then people burn out and leave. If you want a rotating-door system for your kids' teachers, then by all means hire and fire.

While, as a teacher, I think there are enormous problems with unions (in my Canadian one, we have a few slackers) they are far from the central issue. The fact is that most industrialised coutnries in the world beat the US in most educational outcomes (hell even Cuba outperforms the US) and in all places teachers are unionised (google OECD education reports for inter-country analysis).

The bottom line is this...teaching is complex. Focusing on one variable is, well, dumb. As H.L. Mencken said, "for every problem, there is a simple and obvious solution, which is wrong."


JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 12, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
The fact is that most industrialised coutnries in the world beat the US in most educational outcomes (hell even Cuba outperforms the US) and in all places teachers are unionised (google OECD education reports for inter-country analysis).

And how do you measure those educational outcomes, pray tell? By testing rote memorization of facts, perchance?

The "corporate right," to the extent it has any single voice, believes that teachers' unions stand in the way of educational progress in this country, and declining educational outcomes (however measured) in heavily unionized districts give them ammunition.

The question we should be asking is what are the unions doing to improve the educational system for the dollars they extort from us. Are the extra union dues they collect (above and beyond the relatively minimal costs of collective bargaining) being spent to help improve education and teaching as a profession?

John

John
jstan

climber
Apr 12, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
A hypothesis.

You create a test, A huge one that covers everything one is expected to learn in public
education. So many questions no one can remember them and the answers are never given out.
The test stays exactly the same year to year and you make sure as few as possible ever get out.
No one will want to prep for it anyway because the student is never ranked using it and the test
is intended only to assist the educational system.

Each student gets it every year and the changes in that student's answers, particularly as regards
the materials taught that year, give some indication as to what was successfully learned that
year.

If you have teacher A in fourth grade and teacher B in fifth grade and the improvement in fifth
grade is well below the average for that student over many grades while the normalized
improvement in performance for fourth grade was average or better you may get some
information. This normalized improvement factor averaged over many students could be helpful
when looking for ways to assist the teachers.

There is an alternative. It is called an essay question, something rarely used. Ask the student to
write an essay. Year to year compare spelling and construction of the essay for each student.

Essay tests are quite powerful. Maybe that is why we don't use them anymore.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 12, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
Where in the USA is public education doing really well and probably considered the best?

The State of Massachusetts

They fund education properly
The teachers are Unionized
The teachers are professional
The teachers are well respected
The students perform and achieve


Where in the rest of the World is public education doing really well and probably considered the best?

The European Country of Finland

They fund education properly
The teachers are Unionized
The teachers are professional
The teachers are well respected
The students perform and achieve


Coincidence? I think not. Look to these States and Countries as roll models for best education practices.



Which by the way, is light-years from and opposite in direction of the GOP, Corporate, Rich Elite model that is destroying America by destroying Democracy. Collapse Public Education, collapse Unions, collapse the Progressive/Democratic party, which leads to the full collapse of the middle class of America. Game over.

Welcome to the US of The Rich Elite and the Serfs. The "Haves" and the "Have-nots." That is their intention. That is what they want to do.
allapah

climber
Apr 12, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
ok, i'm out here in Nome, i'm giving my 5th graders the #$&%^$ test right now, what better to do while i sit here watching my students like a surveillance robot than type out an added rant on 'Taco teachers'?

Nome is a lot like a reservation- our population has a majority of eskimos- a critical mass of our students are rather disenfranchised and disengaged from this educational system- it went like this: invasion, flu epidemics, missionary schools, free money from the pipeline, alcohol- our school hasn't recovered from this unfortunate sequence of event- though our parents are supportive of our school, there is a subtle message propagated in our collective consciousness that school is the enemy, that this is all BS-

i'd be all for abolishing tenure and merit pay- let's clean out some of these bitter old dinosaur-marms (like Lou Reed said, "stick a fork in their ass and turn 'em over, they're done")- but if our merit is to be based solely on test scores, it will be profoundly unfair, and won't work- i really don't know how to judge merit in a place like this where the students are profoundly disengaged for reasons outside the classroom

i have fought the good fight, taught the hell out of the subject matter, led horses to water and gotten many of them to drink-- and now i have to watch my strategic students playing with their hair, spinning their rulers, and yawning (because it's the Arctic and the sun was shining last night at 10 p.m.)- they don't get WHY this test matters, no matter how hard we try to convey it- indeed, I don't think the test matters to anyone but the teachers whose merit is based on THEIR performance-

very frustrating as the moment viewing my students' lackadaisacal effort, despite a year of preparation pretty much focussed on this very day- the attitudes (of the key students) is overall bad- therefore, this test is not an accurate measure of what they have learned- for the measuring tool to work, students have to know how to use the tool-

fire my ass, i guess- i'll work for free, if they let me, 'cause i do it for love... maybe somebody could give me some food once in a while... oh, and also, i need climbing partners...

ian
harihari

Trad climber
Squampton
Apr 12, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
JEleazarian--

The "standardised" test used by the OECD to compare interculturally is miles different from what the US uses. For one, most are process, not data, based. EG for literacy, they ask people to interpret texts (ads, images, poems, stories), rather than regurgitating facts about specific works of lit. For science, it's problem solving, not factual remembering, and math is pretty much the same (problems).

Intercultural tests (like what the OECD does) measure literacy, math and science knowledge. They don't look at second languages, history etc cos these are too culturally specific to meaningfully compare.

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