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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 23, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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Happiegrrl- Impressive, provoking piece.
Indeed, population (over-population) is the number one problem, probably a problem nature instead of H. sapiens is going to solve.
"Stop having so many children" caught me eye. Women instead of men have to deliver this message to the world. Probably. Compare my thread: Stop Making Babies!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1115083/Stop-Making-Babies
When men make it, the "evil" they are, the attacks are relentless.
P.S.
re: "we have no common consensus on what "the problems" are, nor any will to work together even if we did..." Got that right.
Consider:
I hear the Duggar family is NOW working on the 21st child. (a) Christian families gotta keep up with the Muslim families. This pleases the Lord. (b) "Be fruitful and multiply" means more jobs, more tax revenues, too. "Be fruitful and multiply" stimulates the economy. Also, it means catching up to the Chinese and Indians, can't forget, strength in numbers.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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I'm for ending NASA and putting the money toward cancer curing. Space is not the final frontier Captain Kirk. I'm guessing you work for them or an affiliate Bluering. I say save America by ending standardized testing. So much money goes into it and a young person's worth in my town seems wedded to it.
I have no affiliation with NASA, of any kind.
I don't think you understand how much we have learned through our space program. These are some things we have learned;
http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/en/kids/spinoffs2.shtml
As for cancer - I agree. But throwing money at it won't necessarily fix it (like schooling). It takes will. Are we really trying to fix it? Look at drug companies that are focused on making your dick stay harder, longer or making your bald head grow more hair.
Maybe we need to regress a bit and find some of our older values. We have degenerated and lost sight.
Maybe those crusty old guys were right, Dingus.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
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"jstan a strategy implies a purpose and a will.... WHO? Name names."
Dingus:
Think a little bit more. You will see it very quickly.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
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Not according to these guys.....
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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There's room for billions more.
The whole spiel is mismanaged.
By fattrad's "brilliant people" .....
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dfrost7
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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For one thing, care of the environment must be separated from politics: as much as possible. I spent some time in New Zealand and found it fascinating that it's not "green" or "environmentalist" or anything with a catchy name. It's just the way they do things. Most of the produce is not grown with pesticides or chemicals that can get into the water supply. They don't call it "organic", they say it's just the way they do things. I thought it so amazing to be in a place where they were, as far as I could tell, pretty unanimous on the principles. My friend would say that they were an island nation so it didn't make sense to let things get out of hand.
We came home from a road trip and I noticed a single black bag out in front of each (tract homes) house. These were 4+ bedroom houses. I asked if it was a donation day or something. He laughed. It was trash day. I am still impressed with that kind of reduction in garbage.
I am concerned about the smoke and mirrors, in our own country. There's this fear factor about the people who will be out of work if we lose our dependence on petrolium. Remember when computers came and you were pretty much in very bad shape if you didn't know how to use one (I'm talking way back)? The conversion must take place gradually, I believe. One good little idea at a time.
I disagree about dismissing yesterday's thinking. It has been an abandonment of including former things that gets the US in trouble. We love new stuff. Not only new technology, but new-car-smell stuff: new for the sake of new. Yesterday's thinking (maybe I'm going back farther than the original poster's thinking) would have you patch a jacket, wear things out, give something precious to you, rather than buy gifts all the time.
I bought a Prius and got mocked here by a couple of people, but I cut my fuel consumption in half. Can you imagine if we just cut the consumption in half? It would bring the prices down, I think. I know the fluorecent bulbs have cut my electric bill way down.
But, it takes a whole population not regarding it as a political agenda. Just doing it because it's a good idea. I still see people throwing butts and trash out of the SUV window.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
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" I believe Thomas Malthus said the world was overpopulated in the 1600's, he was wrong."
Boy, you could not be more wrong! The six editions of his An Essay on the Principle of Population, published from 1798 to 1826, observed that sooner or later population gets checked by famine, disease, and widespread mortality. He wrote in opposition to the popular view in 18th-century Europe that saw society as improving, and in principle as perfectible.
So you assert that we haven't seen huge drops in population caused by Famine, disease, and widespread mortality?
http://www.oddee.com/item_90608.aspx
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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It is amazing, huh, that opinions concerning this issue could be so diverse. Insofar as there is any "undoing" of civlization this will be the cause.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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Fattrad - I think my post opener begs the question, what are tomorrow's problems and why do they need to be solved AND why do WE have to solve them, why can't someone else do it?
I always root for the underdog and I always go against the grain. It may just be pathological. I think everyone is equal. But, one big problem I notice is that in every aspect of our lives, we see slight little issues and we don't worry about it until it blows up in our faces: Procrastination. I.e., Peak oil? But by that time the mainstream has caught on to it and is making en vogue.
Dfrost - Agreed. The "Organic" idea boggles my mind. I always wondered what the big deal was with that because didn't this country start out as a farming, agricultural economy before capitalism and the industrial revolution took hold? Our media and government (i think they are the same) have a way of making things seem sexy and in style if they have an agenda which needs to take hold.
One of my friends turned his old, beat up VW into a veggie oil guzzing machine. It was primitive, but it worked and it didn't burn unnecessary fossil fuels and it was easy to do.
Happie - I agree that the population is expanding too fast, but I think that we have the capacity to handle it. Studying economics and farming, I learned a lot. The amount of food that farmers destroy in order to keep the price of crops from dropping is insane. The fact that it would cost more for them to plow their fields and harvest the crops than what they would make for selling the food on the market is sort of counterintuitive. Not to mention that food they destroy could feed thousands of starving people in other countries. It just costs too much and no one wants to pay for it. TGT said it was despotism. I think it's just bad capitalism.
But I do think there's hope for humanity. The machine's got to have people to run it, right?
Blue - i like the idea of a simple life. People say technology is great and it makes our lives easier. But technology also seems like it is trapping us and creating slaves out of us. We can't go more than a few minutes without checking our email, or answering the latest text or updating our facebook status. We are now connected to WiFi in the most remote parts of the world. A friend of mine in Belize was able to check his email on wifi in a hut on some random island.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
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Mason wrote-
"I agree that the population is expanding too fast, but I think that we have the capacity to handle it. Studying economics and farming, I learned a lot."
...............
Yeah, and how much study in, and awareness of, "Peak Oil" do you have under your belt?
It's a game changer. It's also an example of how ONE factor can change EVERYTHING. Like a lightning bolt on a climb.
EDIT
The end of the "cheap easy era" is coming to an end. The end of cheap easy energy- along with its derivatives, cheap easy food, cheap easy transportatioon- is going to seriously impact the planet's carrying capacity. It's wishful thinking to think we're going to find one-to-one replacement energy for fossil fuels.
The field of "Peak Oil" should be required curriculum subject in every public school. Sad it is not.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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"Ken M,
Except for #2, all the others are treatable and even #2 is getting closer. Our science is improving our lives at an exponential rate.
Always with the negative waves, always with the negative waves, woof, woof, woof.
The evil one"
Hide your head in the sand if you want to. Apparently the current generation will be the first in US history to have a lower life expectancy that it's predecessor.
Your assertion that Malthus was wrong, when he correctly predicted the deaths of millions, just doesn't hold up.....
Analysing problems is not negative, it is problem solving, and very positive.
the very topic of this thread is about solving problems. Can't do that, if one doesn't understand them.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 23, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
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Anyone want to hazard a guess on what ushered in the petroleum age?
It was a whale oil shortage.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 23, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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the very topic of this thread is about solving problems. Can't do that, if one doesn't understand them.
I assume population limitation/control is one of the bigger problems with you (us).
What's your solution? Why is there overpopulation? Identify the source of the problem, then figure out a solution. Fix it!
(I'm a troubleshooter by trade)
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 23, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 23, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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Meg, Carly, the next chair of the Calif. GOP and I have big plans.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 23, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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this is fun....
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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Fructose - i think peak oil as a curriculum may be short lived since once it's all gone, there won't be peak oil anymore. We could supplement it with thermodynamics, nuclear systems, physics of cold fusion or some other curriculum for thinking about new systems of renewable energy.
TGT - really? I thought it was because everyone was using kerosene and it was really unstable, dangerous and could blow up and kill people which is why they switched to crude which was much easier to use/process etc.
Either way, both are non-renewable. Whales and dead dinosaurs. Coal too.
Nukes may be useful for powering spacecraft, though.
What about anti-matter or anti-gravity force generators? Can we reverse engineer a black hole?
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
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Blue likes to ride mopeds, even though he doesn't want his friends to see him riding one...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 23, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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WTF??? You guys got a problem with Patio-Cruzin'!!!!!
Any boat with a Barbie on the back is cool.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 23, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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Mason,
Your lack of a history and chemistry education is kill'in ya.
Whale oil was used for illumination and was replaced by kerosene that that Rockefeller got rich producing from crude as the Standard Oil Company. He produced a grade of kerosene that was consistent in quality and drove out all his smaller rivals that for the most part produced an inconsistent product.
Crude up to that point was mostly considered a nuisance that ruined drilled water wells and had no real economic use except for patent medicines.
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