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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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The problem with Tar's attempt at breaching the divide is the issue is not at all unlike nutrionists trying to control America's taste for junk food by attempting to halt the construction of McDonalds. The taste has been acquired and enough fast food joints have been built to be the norm rather than the exception when it comes to dining. Folks brought up on that diet wonder what the problem is and what all the squawking is all about - and why would anyone dream of opposing the convenience of a nearby McDonalds.
That 'new normal' that Wes is pushing and Bob appears to be leading is no different. Sport climbing has successfully redefined climbing in a slightly shorter time frame than McDonalds took to redefine dining out. Who knows, maybe Wes is right - look what junk food has done for our country. And when the red and yellow arches outside the crag says 'Two Billion Bolts Sold' who's to argue with such success?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
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Wes wrote:f people took into consideration the opinions of others before placing bolts we would have bolts, but no bolting problem.
I think people do take into consideration the opinions of others... just not the few who oppose. The majority should not be overpowered by the vocal minority.
The ratio is at 10 to 1 in favor of areas that I have helped developed and new routes that I have climbed. I get e-mails and personal thanks all the time from complete strangers about my efforts on new routes and what I have done to help create a better climbing community.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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Joe....when it comes to bolting you are a extremist and therefore have little to nothing to give to the conversation but your own straight and narrow view.
Joe...how many big walls have you done, how many sport routes, how many trad-routes and how many boulder problems.
Let's compare and then tell me what f*#king type of climbing (new normal) I am trying to lead.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
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I agree Bob, it's no different than my attempt to eat a healthy diet makes me an extremist consumer; but the question of how I ended up an extremist is very much at issue here. Part of the reason I'm an extremist is the sheer numbers of 'climbers' who are only climbers by virtue of wholly bolted routes. The idea that this highly dependent demographic has grown apace by such artificial means and the leveraging of 'climbing' to serve as risk-free entertainment is very much at the heart of the contention in this and other threads.
Again, the reality is that the only rocks being protected from bolting are in private hands or under active management by concerned land managers. I asked you before how many bolts do you suppose will be sunk this weekend up the I-25 corridor between Taos and Denver? It's a pretty straightforward question and it would seem to me with your background you ought to have a handle on it or at least a good guess. How about Red Rock? The idea that the bolting going on is constrained, temperate, and well considered is ludicrious on the face of it.
The extremists have redefined 'normal' for climbing in exactly the way the far right redefined 'normal' for the Republican party (and over the exact same time frame). Moderate Republicans are now extremists in their own party and how I became an 'extremist' is no different than a moderate Eisenhower Republican who woke up to find their party had been hijacked.
Edit: So will you be adding Via Ferratas to that happy mix? Seems like they would be a natural addition to that line up when presented in such a wholistic manner.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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Joe...Red Rocks is closed to climbing. I don't keep tabs on other climbers actions or their diets.
Joe wrote:Edit: So will you be adding Via Ferratas to that happy mix? Seems like they would be a natural addition to that line up when presented in such a wholistic manner.
joe are you against handicap access to trails and wilderness areas just because it make it easier for those folks to gain access to other wise not accessible terrain?
A simple yes or no please....
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 06:17pm PT
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OK Guys I give up. You are right. i just need a little information though. How many big walls should I have done in the last five years to qualify me for:
1. Writing my Senators
2. Writing my Congressman
3. Writing the NFS and NPS
4. Joining organizations which I think are helpful
From the start my point has been that we are dealing with the issue of the uses special user groups make of taxpayer funded public lands. I have to deal with this four times a year so I am rather intimately concerned. That is why I selected the above four questions.
I think that about does it.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 06:31pm PT
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John wrote:OK Guys I give up. You are right. i just need a little information though. How many big walls should I have done in the last five years to qualify me for:
1. Writing my Senators
2. Writing my Congressman
3. Writing the NFS and NPS
3. Posting to ST
4. Joining organizations which I think are helpful
I think that about does it.
John..don't be a as#@&%e.
Joe tried to label me as a certain type of climber which I'm not!! I retorted by asking him certain questions on his climbing and really how well rounded it is.
Unlike you who makes assumptions based on little or no knowledge of the subject...(sport climbing areas) and accusing me of being responsible for the bolt ban in the Gunks when I haven't climbed there in several years prior years to the bolt ban.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
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I'll take that question as a thumbs up on via ferratas...
Well-roundedness has nothing to do with resource exploitation. Clearly we differ on what limits should be placed around permanently altering rock for human entertainment.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 12, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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Bob--
Thanks for editing your original post.
The SOP here is usually to let folks know you went back and changed your original by adding an "EDIT" or something similar.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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Joe wrote:I'll take that question as a thumbs up on via ferratas...
Well-roundedness has nothing to do with resource exploitation. Clearly we differ on what limits should be placed around permanently altering rock for human entertainment.
Climbs are vertical trails....all types of trails exist for what you call human entertainment in local, state and federal parks. They exist to allow everyone the opportunity for a varied human experience from easy to the most difficult and everything in between. People have a right to recreate on public lands...just because they don't do it the same way as you doesn't make it wrong.
Also...thanks for answering my question with a question and assumption.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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Wes....:)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 12, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
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Whatta you guys, having fun here?
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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No Jay, more like; when the fluffing's over, turn out the lights, turn out the lights, turn out the lights....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 12, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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Mimi wrote:No Jay, more like; when the fluffing's over, turn out the lights, turn out the lights, turn out the lights....
Straight from the horse mouth.:)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
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Jstan, do you really feel that the climbing community needs a grumpy ex climber writeing The NPS system and complaing that we arn't climbing the way YOU think we should? Often when the powers that be are bothered with this sort of thing climbing access is negativly affected. Perhaps you would rather not have climbers enjoying the great outdoors and would prefer that only fat lazy people in RV's get to experience our parks??
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 12, 2008 - 08:01pm PT
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To heck with this bolting dust up; it's way light...
I'm heading into the firestorm of this fast food diet thing!
Wish me luck... I'll still post up some photos on occasion.
(I know you's kids are gonnah sort this mess out real tidy: so Godspeed).
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:03pm PT
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No guys, you're the ones having the lovefest. Bob places plenty of bolts so the Weakness can climb, Bob is happy believing he's making climbing safe for the masses. Perfect harmony. True love and admiration.
Edit: Tradman, you too, are way off the mark. It's about sensible resource usage. Why is that so hard for some of you clowns to get? I bet you're in full support of global warming policy though. LOL!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 12, 2008 - 08:08pm PT
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This is like a re-running episode of the Twilight Zone where people are trapped in 1987.
WIILBBBUUUURRR!!!!!1111
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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May 12, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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Nice troll Ron.
This is turning into a real lounge act.
To answer your original question its obvious selfishness is the primary motivator.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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"Climbs are vertical trails....all types of trails exist for what you call human entertainment in local, state and federal parks. They exist to allow everyone the opportunity for a varied human experience from easy to the most difficult and everything in between."
I would beg to disagree. And the disagreement centers around 'construction'. Trad climbs are not vertical trails and only a very small percentage are constructed, they are rather 'found'. Sport climbs on the other hand are wholly constructed - they do not exist without construction. Trails, sidewalks, or roads - it makes not difference to me what you label constructed human paths. You're indifference to, and / or denial of, this key difference between the two is at the heart of your rationale - as is you're 'well-rounded' argument which seeks to further gloss over this essential difference between natural and constructed routes.
By your own argument there is virtually no difference between a via ferrata and sport climb. And why not a via ferrata with wrungs on every sport route? 'Just don't use the wrungs and cable if you don't like it' could be the new mantra of such an equal access utopia.
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