What Is Trad ?????????

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patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 12, 2013 - 12:49pm PT

One could make a case that this is incorrect, from a historical perspective. Now they may use them.
Factually: some of those terms superseded existing terms. Many other terms not listed superseded existing terms.

Yes, but trads are not 'uncomfortable at heart' enough with the practice of sport climbing not make use of useful and accurate terminology. The idea that sport climbers are inherently self-loathing because they aren't trads is just silly.

Something to consider: the top trads today have a background in the sport climbing and or bouldering. If trad is so inherently nifty and wonderful, why is this? Is it maybe because trad is a discipline of the mind and a set of skills, but necessarily a discipline to get one fit for climbing hard moves?

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 12:53pm PT

Example of redefinition of terms by sport climbing culture:

On-site flash: same in both cultures, no change
Red point: new term, old usage loosely was "clean lead".
Pink point: new term, further refining the outcome of pre-placed protection.
Tension: changed to "take", this one seems unnecessary and in some cases dangerous. I know of one accident in particular that relates to it.
Trad route: looks like it has changed to "Gear route", this seems to be more accurate in terms of a portrayal of current usage.
Pre-inspection/rehearsal: Head Point
Perhaps some of you can come up with others, I can't at the moment.
Gotta think about it a little more.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 12, 2013 - 12:57pm PT

Pinkpoint hasn't existed as a distinction in sport world for at least a decade. No one cares if the draws are already on or are permadraws. Look at almost any photo in a mag of anyone doing something hard for evidence of hanging draws.

However, there is a huge difference in trad world if gear is pre-placed or not.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 12, 2013 - 01:04pm PT

... and your 'new terms' have been in the lexicon for at least 25 years.

edit to add: post #420!

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 01:05pm PT

Patrick Compton's quotes:

Yes, but trads are not 'uncomfortable at heart' enough with the practice of sport climbing not make use of useful and accurate terminology.

No argument. But there were a few changes which were unnecessary, sort of like cultural absorption after a war! Oh well.

The idea that sport climbers are inherently self-loathing because they aren't trads is just silly.

Not sure where you got that one, no argument.

The original from Rich Goldstone: "I find it interesting that sport climbers are at heart uncomfortable enough about the rules they've abandoned to have created an extensive vocabulary".

the top trads today have a background in the sport climbing and or bouldering.

Correct; not a faulty observation. This is evolution. Things change, for my part I'm not saying they shouldn't. If I have a mission statement, it's merely to characterize and explore trad.

Is it maybe because trad is a discipline of the mind and a set of skills, but necessarily not a discipline to get one fit for climbing hard moves?

I would say so!

Pinkpoint hasn't existed as a distinction in sport world for at least a decade. No one cares if the draws are already on or are permadraws. Look at almost any photo in a mag of anyone doing something hard for evidence of hanging draws.
However, there is a huge difference in trad world if gear is pre-placed or not.

Agreed.

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Apr 12, 2013 - 01:07pm PT

Glad we are having concensus. The 'self-loathing' question was asked to rGold for clarification.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 01:14pm PT

... And your 'new terms' have been in the lexicon for at least 25 years.

No argument, again. What I said was: "One could make a case that this is incorrect, from a historical perspective." I was speaking to history regarding Rich Goldstone's post: I was elaborating on the general topic he was addressing. I reread his post and I see where you got the bit about insecurity. Fair enough.

Not to run away, but I have to go, what we are discussing is a minor issue and to my mind we are losing the plot, not to invalidate your points.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 12, 2013 - 02:16pm PT

huh? 'trad' climbers use the same terminology.

They do now, first because the terms have "backwashed" from sport climbing, and second because the hardest trad climbs (in the U.S.) have (of necessity) adopted the sport climbing style, and this naturally percolates down to all levels. (I do realize I'm using "trad climbs" as an undefined term here.)

The idea that sport climbers are inherently self-loathing because they aren't trads is just silly.

The only thing that is silly is to read "self-loathing" when I said "uncomfortable enough to...," a locution that isn't even equivalent to "uncomfortable." My point is that the intrinsic demand for rules that is essential to climbing could account for the replacing of abandoned rules with a vocabulary of fine distinctions.

Dingus McGee

Social climber

Laramie

Apr 12, 2013 - 02:30pm PT

How about forgetting Trad?? all it's implications and innuendos ( except for this nostalgic diatribe)and use just variations of two expressions? "Oh No, I'm just a trad climber."

1. Today it's gear climbing for me.

2. It's mostly clip & Go over there.

1. Friends work best on that rock.

2. It's Dirt Me Dude.

And so it is when life is dyed in the wool.

added: I do only ground up walk up off climbs.. Scarpelli was just visiting. He and Wade placed the bolts in the pod on Horn's Mother so they could do just the hard moves and move to the next hard crack section elsewhere. I told him this group would excommunicate him from all trad climbing meetings ,the Eternal Brotherhood of Trad Climbs, the SOB's Against Sport, Bitches for Men for in Briches, Lesbians against Hangdoging, Californicators Pushing Pitons. He'll be taking his chisel out today to respect your wishes.

It is the very people that once were true trad that are pissing off the current trad who don't know the current bigger picture.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Apr 12, 2013 - 03:01pm PT

The question in the OP strikes me as one updating the categories in Lito Tejada-Flores's classic essay "Games Climbers Play" from Ascent in the 1960's. The 426 posts to date, largely but not entirely, seem to be trying to define the "trad game" and placing it in Lito's hierarchy.

In that spirit, I think the Warbler's definition comes pretty close to mine. My only issue concerns how to deal with a first free ascent. Kevin's criteria exclude all forms of aid in placing protection. I think most of us would consider the DNB, Lost Arrow Chimney or Steck-Salathe to be trad climbs, even though aid bolts were placed on the first ascent of each. Similarly, the FFA of the Regular Route of Phantom Pinnacle was made when the third pitch was festooned with fixed pins, left over from its original status as an aid climb.

Do we need some sort of grandfather clause for route done prior to a given date as aid routes?

Incidentally, intense training is certainly nothing new in the trad world. Bouldering started my attraction to climbing in the 1960's. I think the only difference was that almost no one considered bouldering an end in itself. We treated it more as training for "real" climbs.

John

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Apr 12, 2013 - 03:12pm PT

Kamps and I used to argue about how his ideas of "from the ground up" rules severely limited the bolting of overhanging faces. My thoughts, "They would be so cool to climb on lead"!(when protected). Yes, it was a difficult choice for me to convert from what Bob had passed along as doctrine to bolting these overhangs on rappel. Now days many of us like them and repeat them

You do know that Bob really liked going to Williamson Rock, later in his life, and I know he took great pride in doing the "On-site" ... just so the youth would be blown away.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Apr 12, 2013 - 03:43pm PT

Maybe these routes should be named traid routes, to ease the confusion ;)

Excellent!

John

Mark Force

Trad climber

Cave Creek, AZ

Apr 12, 2013 - 05:44pm PT

Dingus, You're right, when it comes to climbing style, it is all arbitrary and meaningless. Climbing doesn't matter other than the pleasure and satisfaction it gives us from playing the game and it's all just a game. Play it anyway you want.

This conversation is all about the nuances of playing the trad climbing game as developed somewhere around the 60s and 70s by the group of climbers playing that game. For the group that plays that game, some rules seem to optimize the pleasure and satisfaction gained from the climbing experience. You can play your own game and make up your own rules. You can play the game you make up by yourself or with other climbers who want to play that particular game.

As for style, there seems to be a general consensus about playing games that style is optimized when technology is minimized and the greatest demands are made on talent, technique, training, mental toughness, etc. In that way, achievement is based on the individuals' abilities rather than the technologies used.

The undercurrent that hasn't been addressed (IMHO ;-)) concerns ethics rather than style. Clean and free trad, even trad style bolting and fixed pins on free routes, has less environmental impact than sport climbing. Those who play the trad game probably feel uncomfortable with the environmental impact of sport climbing and have articulated their arguments as rules of style, a personal issue, rather than as rules of ethics, a community and environmental issue.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 05:48pm PT

Dingus McGee!
This is NOT a nostalgic diatribe.
It is a TRADGASM.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 05:52pm PT

Mark, for me, your first 3 paragraphs are spot on.
The ethical/environmental bit, ostensibly you are correct, but it can be a can of worms. I'll get back to that and elaborate later.

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 06:04pm PT

Agree DMT,
Freeing aid routes suits the definition for me; so does repeating things in "trad style". Higgins' focus on the FA was, I believe, done to address the controversy over how to engage resources.

Using hooks: Bachar used an interesting support for that by calling the B.Y. ... 511 A0. Effectively, he changed the rules but with that distinction as a hedge, for lack of a better word.

(More like 5.11 & new school A2+ haha he was modest there...)

Captain...or Skully

climber

Apr 12, 2013 - 06:21pm PT

I thought it was pretty cool when the Hubers were on The NA Wall, they would ask a lot of questions and try to get a consensus of opinion on what would be Ok in the protection realm, so as not to destroy a Historic Wall Route. Skinner would've just bolted it up.
I still dunno aboot "Trad", though. You mean Tad?