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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
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Lol!
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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Yup,
...and there is a reason some girls only have male friends. I use to be like that, until I figured a few things out.
Same rules apply to us dealing with our own gender. Once we get it, yeah... A whole lot less drama. Women are actually pretty wonderful friends once you treat them appropriately. In fact, once you figure it out, most of them actually have a bit less drama than guys. Compare their drama to ST... It incredibly less drama. Tons and tons of less drama...
AFS
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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Anastasia I respect you (and most of the ST women) immensely. I can empathize with the concerns expressed by several female posters. Yes, traumas in our pasts can have dramatic effects on our nows. So I am bummed the reason d'etre for the original BOOBS thread has been lost in all the chaff and choss. When I was serving in Africa I had the ever so pleasant experience of having another mans blood and brains sprayed across my face when he was shot in the head at close range. So I am a little bothered that the post Sandy Hook threads became - Look at my BIG GUN show and tells.
We live in a culture that glorifies violence and demonizes sexuality. Is it any wonder that the two commingle and that sexually repressed men turn to violent means for gratification? In some ways isn't it what is to be expected? Can it be changed? Do we want to change it?
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
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We do...
But sometimes I think it gets worse instead of better. Women fought for equal rights. The right to work, be educated, drive a car, to be allowed into the sport of climbing, etc. So now it gets twisted...
Somehow instead of making us have more options, we got lost... We now must have a great full time job, raise perfect kids while working forty hours a week, be highly educated, be beautiful and sexy, clean the house, stay fit and take a hit like a man. The expectations are getting ridicules. I think now women are regressing, going against feminism because at least our previous roles were well defined and "manageable." It does not make men right, instead it's a sign of great failure for us all as a society.
That's my two cents.
P.S. Also because women are failing against these impossible new standards, some men are using it to confirm their domination, that women somehow can't hack it... They were somehow right for their male chauvinistic approach to life. Never mind they can't achieve those standards themselves... It's really sad. I also feel really bad that in order for a woman to be in a dominate role, many don't have role models to shape their behavior and end up using the old bitch card. Plus, society placing young woman on pedestals as being the ideal. It has created a world without elders, without the respect for wisdom they could teach us. Old means wasted, not wise sadly applies to both men and women. It's a great loss...
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part-time communist
Mountain climber
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
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Women fought for equal rights. The right to work, be educated, drive a car, to be allowed into the sport of climbing, etc.
the only remaining thing left to do is fight against the male standard. Work, education, car driving, climbing is all done in accordance to the male standard.
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part-time communist
Mountain climber
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
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Somehow instead of making us have more options, we got lost... We now must have a great full time job, raise perfect kids while working forty hours a week, be highly educated, be beautiful and sexy, clean the house, stay fit and take a hit like a man. The expectations are getting ridicules. I think now women are regressing, going against feminism because at least our previous roles were well defined and "manageable." It does not make men right, instead it's a sign of great failure for us all as a society.
yea, in my humble opinion, woman's identity is still an unknown.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
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And hopefully the beginning of Kind Men.
Somehow instead of making us have more options, we got lost... We now must have a great full time job, raise perfect kids while working forty hours a week, be highly educated, be beautiful and sexy, clean the house, stay fit and take a hit like a man.
Wait, you mean you don't? :)
Define yourself don't let yourself be defined.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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the only remaining thing left to do is fight against the male standard. Work, education, car driving, climbing is all done in accordance to the male standard.
WTF is the "male standard". Please give me some criteria. As a generalization I'm not sure what you mean.
Women in combat now, or soon. Is it going to be the "male standard" against which they need to perform or a universal standard of what does it take to get the job done and the troops are safe?
Susan
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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^^^ excellent point
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
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Interesting turn here. I've not made feeling inferior to "men" part of my world view. Maybe I just had a strong matriarchal family structure growing up. I don't like to speculate on the absolutes in the gender equality issue but prefer to focus on the continuum that allows for balance.
edit: Susan, women have already been operating in combat for quite sometime. Physical training standards are based on age and gender. Although, even by the younger male standards I was no slouch. Except running. Hate it!
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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"WTF is the "male standard". Please give me some criteria"...
Start here!!!...
LOL!!!...
a song?!!! oh great. Might as well be on an 8-track.
FWIW, I fell in love with Joshua Ledet on American Idol last year singing that song. The only time I ever saw AI when I was channel surfing and saw him. Ohhhhhh
Susan
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part-time communist
Mountain climber
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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Women in combat now, or soon. Is it going to be the "male standard" against which they need to perform or a universal standard of what does it take to get the job done and the troops are safe?
male and universal standard are one and the same thing in our society.
it simply means a standard of how things should be done, a standard which defines excellence and performance. A standard which everything else is judged against. For example, take any sport in our society. This sport exists because it has been deemed as a "worthy pursuit" according to the male standard. Male standards means the dominant standard, a standard through which society leads its day to day happenings. The standard which is pioneered and led by men is generally viewed as "superior" because the male standard is in place when evaluating action, people, and events. Sexuality is understood according to the "dominant male standard" (usually something along the lines of gender differences and sex is natural and biological)
Women, as active participants of the work force and society at large, follow the male standard.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jan 27, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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Warbler the battle was lost long ago ( at least 570 posts ago) we old goats can all commiserate with a round of ship dip.
Bartender let me buy this round a table.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 27, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
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All I know is women being educated, entering fields that were once exclusive to men is still very new. For those unaware of history it might appear that we've done this forever. Yet in reality it's only been maybe two generations of women experiencing these freedoms. In my own case, I am the first woman in my Mom's family to go to college and leave her parents house without being married. Think on that. Plus in the field of surgery, it is still rare to find women performing and staying until retirement.
I am seriously giving it seven generations for things to balance out, society to really grasp the magnitude of it all. Until then, yes... The battle of the sexes will go on.
On a personal note... When a guy can keep female friends and treat them accordingly and morally correct, that is a sure sign that he might be able to see them beyond their physical uses. When he can't, refuses friendship because it "might" be too tempting, she isn't his physical type, whatever... That says a ton too.
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part-time communist
Mountain climber
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Jan 27, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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another example of male standard is to favor visual over the psychological. Another example of male standard is to favor logic over emotion.
hence some of the heated response where some of the guys get all worked up and go "its just boobs!!!!!"
well, its more than just boobs. The question of 1. what is important and 2. what are the definition of things and how are words used
those questions are usually addressed in the framework of the male standard (or male norms)
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 27, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
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it simply means a standard of how things should be done
so open to interpretation...without some "specifics" of what does this male standard "look like" or some metrics it's all in the beholder's mind. If one wants to play the downtrodden "victim" to what they conjure up about unfairness, then so be it. Its a disingenuous argument with no science or verifiable metrics or standards behind it...just conjecture. There are real battles of discrimination to fight, not worth wasting time on the "soap box" of perceived inequalities.
Edit:
Ana, I understand what you say about the evolution of women into once male-dominated fields. My grandma was a suffargette. I was of the generation that burned our bras (which worked for at least several decades until we couldn't pass the pencil test anymore). The point I'm trying to make is then take "action", real action to speed up the process of eliminating discrimination where it really exists. Turning to soapboxes, arm chair ranting and ST forum is time ill spent. Oh geez, if I were younger I would dust off my SDS card (although I never built bombs or robbed banks). Alot of us are good at "spraying and praying" (that something will happen) then leaving the gunt work to someone else. Change requires action, not saliva.
Susan
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Jan 27, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
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I would guess that a :male standard" is to consider things through the viewpoint and experience of males.
One example could be, I think, how recently it was discovered that women and men actually have differing symptoms of heart attack. Until that discovery, the symptoms that men presented were "the standard"(despite plenty of women having had heart attacks which ought to have provided some insight there were variables). Women were going to their doctor with symptoms which didn't fit the "standard" and risked misdiagnosis of impending heart issues.
Or, that women being seen as having primarily a sexual identity, above that of a human one, in media, is the way to utilize female actors, models, spokespeople, etc., because that is the accepted way to sell more products. It is assumed that is what men want, due to media being dominated by men(it still is, by the way, though not by as overwhelming a majority as was the case a generation ago). It may BE the way to sell more product to men, and women may have become desensitized to the point that it goes unnoticed a lot of the time. But if you asked women how they would design an ad for, say floor cleaner, they probably wouldn't make one like this...
edit: Link to ad on website. http://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/prints/handy-andy-floor-cleaner-reflection-2234605/
This image was found by searching "ads for floor cleaning products + images" on Google, and was the first image displayed, by the way. There was no use of a gender-related keyword in my search.
Of interest might be that the floor that is shown is in a public space. Quick - what does the janitor cleaning that floor look like to you?
Was it a man? Don't women also work in janitorial jobs? I've seen a lot of women doing such work at public spaces, and it might be assumed that some of those women are the ones in charge of deciding what cleaning products their company uses. Do you think that a woman is going to see an ad that gets the floor surface so shiny people can see under women's skirts and think "That's the product for my company!"
Even so, why does the advertiser not care that the ad is pretty offensive, from most woman's standpoints? It might be because of a "male standard" of thinking which tends to minimize the importance of the female customer. I don't know why else.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jan 27, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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Handy Andy. LOL
I am curious if any of you remember your high school biology classes?
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 27, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
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"the standard"(despite plenty of women having had heart attacks which ought to have provided some insight there were variables). Women were going to their doctor with symptoms which didn't fit the "standard" and risked misdiagnosis of impending heart issues.
Happie, a really good real, identifiable, quantifiable example! That is when progress is made, when we can clearly and specifically define the problem and attack it and change it. Women not having the right to vote was another definable problem...clearly defined, articulated and the result was visible!
If we can't define the problem in specific terms then we all just add our opinion and points of view.
Why am I getting into this? I'm retired from political action, my life is content. I AM NOT dusting off my SDS card...spend too many nights in a cold and clammy clinker ... but I think we made some progress back then, we sure were noisy!
Edit: Happie I wonder if it was female docs or researchers that caught the differences? If it were a team of male docs and researchers what were they trying to rip off from us (LOL)
Another example from my wild days was working (tirelessly, but I was young) for Title IX equality in sports. Some of the younger women on this forum probably take that all for granted. Still lots of work to be done, but sure beats the fact that as a female basketball player I was only allowed to play on half court, and if I was guard I could only go half court on that already half court. And we were only allowed to dribble 3 times. Yes, we were a gentle lot.
Susan
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 27, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
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Sorry... But that is dang funny!
Good point Happy...
I know... I know...
But I have to say it, to me they are just boobs. The part that I, the very person that started the Boob thread that obviously doesn't mind boob pictures... What shocked and angered me "specifically" were the verbal attacks and the underage pictures. Yes, People are allowed to disagree, but how that was done was "Seriously Wrong." Also the kid pictures... That's just plain SCARY Bad. I don't give a hoot if they are somehow of age, or are stated somewhere as being of age. All that can be falsified and the intend was to make them look like kids so it's useless. They looked like children and that's enough.
People need to clean up their act. Try it, might even improve one's life outside of the Taco.
Let me repeat this... I never, ever imagined people going this far. Again, I expected better. I am extremely sorry for the mess. Yes, a joke gone bad but wow... That was something else and way to far...
P.S. I am of the 80's generation that grew up with MTV, Playboy, and big hair. Women were highly objectified in my generation. Lots of equal rights speech but reality was a bit different. My mother's generations was the real thing. Mine... It's way different and yes... My generation is the plastic surgery generation. That says it all.
(In my head I can hear the song my class made as their theme song for our senior float... Here it goes... "She's my Cherry Pie...")
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