Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:01am PT
|
Hey, it was Sweden so I figured the manpris and the Hot Henry hat were ok.
Was I wrong? (at least they were Levis manpris)
|
|
ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:19am PT
|
does this mean I have to wait 20 more years before I can climb trad?
Damn...and here, I thought it was about the top out...
oh well, guess I'll just have to settle for intense scrambling til I get to climb trad...hee hee
Cheers
LS
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:51am PT
|
Wonderful conversation everyone and thanks to Tarbuster for getting the ball rolling.
As far as knowing it when you see it...
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 06:49am PT
|
to the contrary, ice, alpine and aid are a hell of a lot more traditional than whineing about other climbers not playing by YOUR RUles which seems to be the core principal of modern so called trad climbing....
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 07:10am PT
|
to the contrary, ice, alpine and aid are a hell of a lot more traditional than whineing about other climbers not playing by YOUR RUles which seems to be the core principal of modern so called trad climbing....
you have a complex, tradmanclimbs.
it might stem from the fact that your gal is buffer than you
(how many times? how many times have you pasted that picture
of your incredibly strong partner, all pumped and flexed?)
don't fret man.
everyone here knows how badass and talented you are.
the plethora of your (copyrighted) glossies assure
us of your hyper-pure motivations,
and exquisite execution of said righteous ideals.
kevin wasn't whining. he even qualified his opinion as humble and crusty.
But Ice climbing, aid climbing and alpine climbing aren't trad climbing, at least IMH(and admittedly crusty)O and according to Tom Higgins who coined the term.
Trad climbing refers to free climbing on rock with no use of aid whatsoever - if you know climbing history and respect the term's traditional meaning.
you, man, need to go hug a teddybear.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 07:19am PT
|
The YOUR Rules comment is not aimed at kevin. It is aimed at all the folks who wave the trad flag in a way that judges anyone who does not climb by their rules as inferior and heathen. We used to get a lot of that crap here in the east but it seems to have mellowed out the last few years... They pretty much ran Ken Nichols out of town so to speak;) Nothing has been chopped in awhile that i am aware of which is a good thing.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 07:21am PT
|
Perhaps George Hurley going an a marathon rap bolting spree the last 10 years or so has helped calm the choppers down a bit;)
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 09:26am PT
|
Jaybro,
it is possible to do a climb, but not the same climb.
After all the talk, it was just a jet pack.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 09:31am PT
|
Jaybro,
400 posts to this thread substantiate my belief stated earlier in the thread:
it seems traditional for a trad climber to be concerned about the definition of his group and sporty for a sport climber to not be concerned how his group is defined. So you can define the sport climber with sport even though you are a trad.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 11:24am PT
|
Complaining about rules as if they are the evil invention of some particular group, and the absurd pretense that some people operate without any rules is tiresome. (This is not aimed at the previous post.) All climbing, trad, sport, alpine, Himalayan, is based on rules. Climbing, in every one of its modern forms, is based on the voluntary renunciation of all possible means. There would be nothing recognizable as climbing if climbers didn't deny themselves certain forms of progression and technology. In other words, without "rules" climbing ceases to exist.
The achievements of climbing are framed in the context of the rules that were and were not used. Ascents without oxygen, clean aid, use of fixed ropes, type of protection, and on and on. In many cases it is impossible to understand a particular bit of climbing without also knowing the rules that the ascenders adhered to.
Of course, there has always been and will continue to be conflict between people playing essentially the same game with different sets of rules. We don't have referees to blow the whistle---climbers make their cases by force of argument and the martialing of communal opinion. And when conflicts exist, there is always the potential for extremism to warp the debate, as Ken Nichols managed to do in Connecticut.
Sport climbing broke a lot of the existing rules and generated controversy because of that. I find it interesting that sport climbers are at heart uncomfortable enough about the rules they've abandoned to have created an extensive vocabulary (flash, onsight, redpoint, pinkpoint, etc.) that replaces the abandoned rules with a host of fine-tuned distinctions that qualify the level of achievement.
The rules are dead. Long live the rules.
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
|
What Warbler said!!!!
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
|
Yeah, but...--Doofy
Nice regurgitation, rgold. For lack of a better word.
And what that Mark guy said.
What about tomorrow?
Will trad remain simply trad, folks?
KTAC radio be right back and we'll see.
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
|
I find it interesting that sport climbers are at heart uncomfortable enough about the rules they've abandoned to have created an extensive vocabulary (flash, onsight, redpoint, pinkpoint, etc.) that replaces the abandoned rules with a host of fine-tuned distinctions that qualify the level of achievement.
huh? 'trad' climbers use the same terminology.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
|
Rich Goldstone: thank you.
Kevin: yes
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
|
Tradmanclimbs said:
The YOUR Rules comment is not aimed at kevin. It is aimed at all the folks who wave the trad flag in a way that judges anyone who does not climb by their rules as inferior and heathen.
This is to my mind is a culturally relevant point to make, because we see so much of this judgmental behavior, at its worst, easily characterized as bitter posturing, but please let me make it clear that this is not the intent of this thread. My intent is not to expose Trad as having superiority over sport climbing. No. My intent for this thread is truly to plumb the question posed in the OP and likewise to expose, define and investigate the nuances of the trad experience.
Patrick Compton said earlier:
Horn's Mother? Sure is it trad, especially with the convenience bolts with chains for lowering so you don't have to walk off or do 2 rappels. Who would want to do that?!
... Not a point to be missed in pursuit of accurate definition of terms! Convenience anchors are antithetical to the accumulated "rules of trad". More important than this however, are the nuanced benefits of a complete and self-sustained way of approaching and sustaining the fundamental qualities of adventure: convenience anchors disrupt this flow.
"Accurate definition of terms" brings us to Warbler:
But Ice climbing, aid climbing and alpine climbing aren't trad climbing, at least IMH(and admittedly crusty)O and according to Tom Higgins who coined the term.
Trad climbing refers to free climbing on rock with no use of aid whatsoever - if you know climbing history and respect the term's traditional meaning.
But if tradition and history are unimportant, trad can mean whatever.
Thank you Kevin for sticking with this notion of researching etymology through providing Tom Higgins' published work in helping us to define our terms; you brought your nail bags, good, as the lexicon needs either some clarification, maintenance or a remodel!
Again from Tom Higgins website:
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=19
So: as a matter of semantics, the phrase "traditional climbing" may well enough circumscribe everything that came before sport climbing and gyms, to include mountaineering, alpinism, aid climbing and so forth. Conversely, it may well be that we need to see the euphemism or slang usage of "Trad Climbing" as distinct from "Traditional Climbing". "Trad climbing" we may wish to agree, refers only to a specific style of free climbing. This might seem like nit picking but I think it is potentially of great help in underscoring what Kevin is getting at, thank you.
This is important lexicographic work. We are not dead yet!
And I am not done yet, I got more in the pipeline: I AM TRAD … Hear me ROAR! hahahahahha.
Mark Force!
Excellent stream of pictures: you saved me a lot of work!
You guys are a lot of work, this is all work: work work work work work work work work I tell you!
TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD TRAD
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
|
^^^ "TRAD, TRAD, TRAD..." = another term: Tradgasm.
Use in a sentence: While sitting in my cubicle, posting on ST, I had a tradgasm just thinking about how great trad is.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
|
Mr. Compton said:
huh? 'trad' climbers use the same terminology.
One could make a case that this is incorrect, from a historical perspective. Now they may use them.
Factually: some of those terms superseded existing terms. Many other terms not listed superseded existing terms.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
|
rgold,
yes, most every group internally communicates with nuanced words, or lingo, to tell their story in shorter form. Sport climbers are more competitive than typical trads and that is reflected in the various words they use to describe subtle aspects of making the ascent.
Kamps and I used to argue about how his ideas of "from the ground up" rules severely limited the bolting of overhanging faces. My thoughts, "They would be so cool to climb on lead"!(when protected). Yes, it was a difficult choice for me to convert from what Bob had passed along as doctrine to bolting these overhangs on rappel. Now days many of us like them and repeat them.
Perhaps its our genetics that forced us to abandon that narrow view of what back then constituted all of good climbing style.
We have deeply different desires about how we want to use the rock surface and especially when these uses are cast with words the amplify small differences defenses arise.
|
|
John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
|
Seems like there are a lot of trad routes out there that were ground up and maybe even hand drilled that had some of the drilling done on a hook... or does that make it mixed?
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
|
BITD all I recall is asking "Did ya do it?" because there was only one way to do it - the right way.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!