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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 18, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Where is the parking for 130 cars and a tram station in the gravel pit. This is going to hose the Chief users if trammies park in the park.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 18, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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Call me cynical
No, not cynical, just lacking a view of the big picture. Here's the deal: You're right about the thing not attracting hundreds of riders per day in the winter, but that's only because you don't know about Phase II. Once they've got the ski runs carved through the trees, and all the snow making machinery in place, it'll pack in more people in the winter than in the summer.
Hundreds per day? Hell, there'll be thousands! Who would want to drive an extra half hour to Whistler when they can get their turns at Squamish? Sophisticated Euros and Asians will swarm, dropping a thick coating of dollars over everything in Squamish.
And not only that, but... What? Why are you laughing? You don't believe me? But... but...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 18, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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Stewart- I think you have the wrong fellow if you are under the impression that ghost is Perry. Not to worry, happens all the time with all the pseudonyms. Chief is Perry. Ghost is David.
Who is that anders Ourom guy? He sounds quite reasonable. Too bad he doesn't post here. He could really provide some moderation to that MH guy.
The old internet axiom proves it self true once again ;)
hmm maybe we're going at this all wrong...
one-kilometre-long, 20-metre-wide corridor
This sounds like exactly what we need at the base of the Malemute!!! build a big fence, we could climb there legally!!!
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 18, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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So all the parking lots are packed full of hikers and the brilliant idea is to build a gondola...and this will be the magical tipping point that brings Squamish loads of tourist dollars?
Seems to me that a few more trails would be the answer...even just fixing up the connector trail from Slhaney to the Chief would help with the congestion. As is stands now I can hike to the backside on a weekend and not run into one single other person if I approach from the Slhaney trail head.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 18, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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Good idea, but that's a little like adding another merge lane at Park Royal to help with traffic approaching the Lion's Gate. It's all dreamy on the merge but you've still got to get over the bridge and through the causeway.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 18, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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No its about giving people what they want instead of telling people what they need.
People at this time of year and for the next couple months are after low elevation trails...right now they get the Chief and thats it!!!
Grind is CLOSED and so will any trail thats accessed from this gondola at this time of year.
So in a few months they get two trails...give them what they want not this silly gondola idea.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 18, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Just recieved this link from someone in WB when i enquired about monthly sightseeing user numbers. Page 15 of the investor report has the stats, unfortunately they don't share monthly numbers with fools like me. I do find these numbers quite interesting however, as it's fair to say that a majority of their sightseeing biz is done between Dec-April & July-Sept. With about 4 months of nothing in the inbetween times.
http://www.whistlerblackcombholdings.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240837&p=irol-presentations
100k - 400k / annum. Minimum number suggests about 270 /day.
It would appear that the Squamish gondola proponents plan on doing the same business as those up in "fat city", even though they will be nowhere's near the scale of operation to accomodate such numbers.
Considering that WB (the biggest resort in NA) is doing just over 300k sightseers per annum it is a bit of a stretch to say that even 33% of those who go sightseeing in Whistler per year (100,000)will ride the gondola in Squamish as well. No clue where they got that 400,000 number from!!??
They better have some serious plans for some massive innukshuks up by Habrich or they are doomed since it is obvious that the actual Squamish gondola operation will be "rinky dink" in every single area of comparison-except projected user numbers apparently :-)
If they can make a bigger innukshuk than WB they may just be able to survive......
Who's going to the meeting tomorrow night??
Bruce Kay's Soc's vs. Mighty Hikers Greasers
Or is it the other way around?
Should be a good one, sadly i have to work so my inner pony boy will have to be restrained.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 18, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
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Yup, I got the wrong guy in all the confusion. I've sent Ghost my apology and here it is on the forum. I f*#ked up and apologize for any "collateral damage".
As for the rest of my comments about politicians, I truly believe that the best default position with these contentious issues is maximum cynicism - make these guys declare that there is no secret financial, social, family or political connection to the developer or their political career is over for good. Also it would be nice to expect that they resign from office if they break a campaign promise without a clearly defensible reason.
This might seem a bit extreme, but it would have saved us from Gordon Campbell, and perhaps it would have prevented the nation from having a constipated ideologue for PM - you may recall that our current Defence Minister betrayed David Orchard on national television to facilitate the creation of Canada's current ruling party.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 19, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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I said this to Stewart in an email, but I'll repeat it here: No apology necessary. No mean-spirited words were spoken.
And that's true of this whole debate. By internet forum standards this has been intelligently conducted and very civilized. Pig-headedness and name-calling have been largely absent, and participants have (gasp...) actually taken notice of other people's thoughts.
Rock on.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 19, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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Does BC use anything like this to guide development proposals? This is Washington State's initial process for projects:
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/ecy05045.pdf
This checklist covers most of the questions that need to be answered before a proposal can proceed. In some cases an environmental impact statement must be written but that is usually not the case as most specific questions agencies have can be addressed by providing more information.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 19, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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Canadians are known for their manners. By the way, the Canucks won a game, Anders seems to be warming up to the gondola, and Spring is right around the corner. Things are looking up!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 19, 2012 - 01:34am PT
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I've been rather preoccupied with other matters the last few days - have I missed anything?
The information that was posted on Saturday night was of interest in and of itself, although you have to read and think about it. It was also to illustrate that FOSC has done its homework – part of which is to alert people to what is being proposed, especially people who don't live in the area, hadn't been informed, and wanted to comment and participate.
It's interesting that when the NPS proposes a new master plan, it’s widely publicized, with ample opportunities for public discussion. (See e.g. http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1798750/Fence-to-built-around-El-Cap-Meadow-Merced-River-Plan.); Squamish is a provincial park, rather than a national one, and while it offers excellent climbing and scenery, isn’t quite of the stature of Yosemite. Still, you’d think that given the usage and values of the Chief and area, and that it’s an established international attraction, consultations on making significant change would be wide and inclusive.
The meeting on Thursday is one of many small steps needed for the proposal to get all the required approvals. I wouldn’t make too much of it. The SLRD board, which includes some councilors from Squamish, will hopefully see the problems relating to removing land from Class A parks, the flawed process, and the importance of upholding the intent of conservation covenants, and require a step back. The easy decision for them would be to say any problems with the process are the province’s issue, not theirs, and that all they need to consider is rezoning a bit of land – not that the province seems much more interested in the big picture. FOSC hopes to be well represented at the meeting, and ensure our concerns are heard, but when you consider the location, and the fact that many who may want to comment simply can’t attend, it’s the letters that those who are concerned write to the politicians that may be more important. Ed Cooper and many others can’t be there in person - that's part of the problem. We certainly encourage those who can, to attend, but it's not the sort of meeting where those who are most numerous/loudest are the 'winners'.
At this point the most effective thing to do is to write, and to inform everyone you know about what’s happening. Write to the following, with the header “Stawamus Chief Gondola Proposal”:
Premier Christy Clark: premier@gov.bc.ca
Terry Lake, Minister of Environment: env.minister@gov.bc.ca
Adrian Dix, Leader of the Opposition: adrian.dix.mla@leg.bc.ca
Rob Fleming, NDP Environment Critic: rob.fleming.mla@leg.bc.ca
Joan McIntyre, MLA: joan.mcintyre.mla@leg.bc.ca
Chief Ian Campbell, Squamish Nation: chief_ian_campbell@squamish.net
Mayor Rob Kirkham: rkirkham@squamish.ca
Chair Susan Gimse, Squamish-Lillooet Regional District: sgimse@telus.net
State your views, the reasons you have them, why you’re interested in this issue, who you are, and where you live. Remind them that government’s job is to protect and manage parks, in the public interest.
You can also write to:
• Vancouver Sun: sunletters@vancouversun.com
• Squamish Chief (newspaper) dburke@squamishchief.com
• Globe & Mail letters@globeandmail.ca
• Georgia Straight letters@straight.com
• Vancouver Province provletters@theprovince.com
I'll try to check back in this weekend.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 19, 2012 - 10:45am PT
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Let's keep a rational perspective. Many of supporters have voiced support for amenities and benefits which presently fall under the category of fantasy.
Visualize the worst case scenario and strive to prevent it.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 19, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
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Come on guys seriously! We get the lower Malamute classics back, plus make sure we put a clause in the contract that,
A: If this thing goes belly up the security deposit be more than enough with interest to clean up the mess.
B: The tower land is cleaned up and replanted. Then re-classified class A park land.
C: An item is added to the chief park master plan which states that such commercial interests are no longer permitted.
D: another item is added which states that the chief park is class A park land and shall never be re-classified for any reason.
So then if it fails we get it all back + more and if it succeeds then squamish will see some of the economic benefits + WE GET CLEAN CRACK BACK!!!!
And hand jive, caboose, ect, ect...
The added benefit is that since we are willing to compromise we dont look so stuck in our ways. If it does fail we would accomplish a lot more towards protecting the park.
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Apr 20, 2012 - 01:38am PT
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Um, Mike? We don't get anything back at the lower Malemute. Unless you know something we don't about CN Rail closing shop and pulling up the tracks? This issue has no bearing at all on the Malemute. (maybe you were kidding and I just missed it...)
K
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 20, 2012 - 01:47am PT
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I was kidding sorta. If we can re-classify park land for them then why can't they buy an equal strip of land, to reclassify as parkland? Why then could that strip not be the land between the tracks and the Malamute?
since cn is not willing to accept the liability of having people near the tracks we could take away that worry for them by building a fence. Win Win in my book.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 20, 2012 - 02:45am PT
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An interesting rainy evening in Britannia Beach, the community about 10 km south of Squamish. It's been neglected for much of the 40 years since the mine closed, but is now getting going again.
It seems reasonably likely that no one changed his/her mind tonight. Nothing much new was said, either, although there were a few interesting tidbits.
It was a Squamish-Lillooet Regional District meeting, a required public hearing on a bylaw to rezone land where the proposed upper terminal would go. (Not to be confused with the District of Squamish, the local government.) A relatively minor step in the piecemeal processes, such as they are. The narrow issue was the rezoning, but comments on the broader issues were permitted.
About 100 people may have been there. After introductions, and a spiel from the developers, each person got two minutes to speak. No questions, rebuttals, etc. People were well-behaved. Perhaps 60 or 70 spoke, with 3/4 or more in favour. Many of those in favour seem to be on a first name basis with the developers, and their comments were very similar. Piling on the positive adjectives. Not surprising - they had a meeting beforehand to script things. Most of those present were from Squamish, probably over 90%. A continuing flaw in the process, that it hasn't been inclusive. The news media was there, also.
15 - 20 from Friends of the Squamish Chief (and supporters) were present, most but not all with our new blue buttons. Mostly from Squamish - I'm the token Vancouverite on FOSC. About ten of us spoke.
The Regional District won't make a decision for a few days to a few weeks, depending on what they make of all the comments and information, and what other information they need.
Afterwards, all the climbers went to the pub and solved all the world's problems. (Sadly, we didn't.)
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 20, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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"A continuing flaw in the process, that it hasn't been inclusive."
What does that mean? Ed Cooper wasn't invited?
Where did you want the meeting to be held? Surrey? Port Moody? Point Grey? Port Hardy? Nelson? Prince George?
Thanks to M.H. for posting all those interesting articles. The Pique had one written by John French which had many quotes and info from Anders and Friends of the Chief. It's funny to read his tenth paragraph, which lays out the covenant on the gravel pit. Funny because, for some reason, the covenant is worded differently than it was a week ago. Naturally the new wording excludes any gondola whatsoever. I don't how that kind of stuff keeps happening. Perplexing.
Like I've maintained all along, build it or don't build it, I don't really care. But at least be honest.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 20, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Bruce, I talked with someone I know after the meeting, and commented on the similarities in what many of the "Pro" people said. It wasn't you, and no I won't say who it was. But the person confirmed that there had been a pre-meeting where they'd prepared their scripts. As for the "news media" comment, I was simply reporting for the many who couldn't be there in person.
With regard to the conservation covenant, we'll leave TLC and its lawyers, and perhaps those for the developers, to sort it out its enforceability, and the governments to decide on the policy level. It's clearly an issue.
And yes, there should be public meetings in Squamish, Whistler and Vancouver, and by internet, where BC Parks presents its independent review of the proposal, how it fits with the master plans and goals for the park, and seeks public input. Why wouldn't there be?
I met the would-be developers in person after the meeting, and chatted briefly. (We'd earlier offered to meet, through an intermediary.) We agreed that whatever else, their proposed gondola wasn't going to be built to the top of the Chief.
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