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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
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Jan: I definitely have a Japanese, a French, a Sherpa, and an American personality, yet I remain myself.
What a beautiful mystery.
Tvash:
"Attention schema" or "soul," you don't know what either of them is. Any label or concept is going to get you to the same place: somewhere in space with nothing to hold on to but the naive belief that either of them are real. You pick and choose among concepts, which is sort of like picking seats in the same theatre. It's only the view that changes. This thing or that thing, it makes no difference.
If a concept has a concept, is either of them real?
You really Are making all this stuff up.
FOLKS . . . there is no "no thing." It's a little funny, really. (I don't even know where to begin. :-) )
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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Sensory deprivation is famously effective at producing hallucinations. That is not to say meditation produces hallucinations, but rather alternate states constructed in the attention schema in the absence of normal attending. The specific nature of consciously experienced states doesn't matter - the possibilities are seemingly infinite. If you can consciously experience and report it, according to Graziono's theory, it must be constructed in the attention schema.
This theory doesn't negate the existence of anything we can potentially be aware of - it simply requires that awareness to be modeled in the attention schema with neural information before any action (reporting) can be taken.
The question of whether or not such states originate from God, a universal sentience field, or whatever, remains, but I know where I'd place my bet, given zero evidence for any 'receiver' neural circuitry that might tune in to such external factors.
And yes, the attention schema is necessarily spartan - like all hierarchical control systems, much if what our neural/body system does either isn't modeled there (it happens outside our awareness) or is highly summarized.
MikeL - when you're tasked with studying, diagnosing, and treating real brain disorders and injury, let us know how that 'nothing matters' line goes for you. As for me making this up - I'm simply passing the theories of Damasio and Graziono (both of whom make sense to me) - feel free to email your concerns to them.
We can all choose to punt with regards to whether we actually try to understand how our universe functions, instead resorting to the kind of tired psychobabble you continue to present here. That kind of intellectual laziness is so much easier, I'll agree with you there, but you really can't say what is or is not a mystery, can you? Well, you can - but not with any credibility.
It's likely that I find the universe every bit as beautiful as you do, although you seem to assume otherwise. Yet another thing you cannot and do not know. Yet another beautiful mystery.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:50pm PT
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are you really saying the people in Asia are like ants?
No-No, the Ants were my fast unimaginative way of exampling a combined way of thinking,compared to an individual one. That's all.
As for extraverted personalities being more happy, it seems to me that's a judgement call
i got that here on wiki under Personalities;
Another interesting finding has been the link found between acting extroverted and positive affect. Extroverted behaviors include acting talkative, assertive, adventurous and outgoing. For the purposes of this study, positive affect is defined as experiences of happy and enjoyable emotions.[8] This study investigated the effects of acting in a way that is counter to a person’s dispositional nature. In other words, the study focused on the benefits and drawbacks of introverts (people who are shy, socially inhibited and non-aggressive) acting extroverted, and of extroverts acting introverted. After acting extroverted, introverts’ experience of positive affect increased [8] whereas extroverts seemed to experience lower levels of positive affect and suffered from the phenomenon of ego depletion. Ego depletion, or cognitive fatigue, is the use of one’s energy to overtly act in a way that is contrary to one’s inner disposition. When a person acts in a contrary fashion, he diverts most, if not all, (cognitive) energy toward regulating this foreign style of behavior and attitudes. Because all available energy is being used to maintain this contrary behavior, the result is an inability to use any energy to make important or difficult decisions, plan for the future, control or regulate emotions, or perform effectively on other cognitive tasks.[8]
isn't the essence of Christianity putting others before yourself?
Yes! And the point i'm trying to relate is that it doesn't necessarily need be Ego-less. It does require one to be humble in nature. But why not be confident, outgoing, and happy about helping others? It can be done without boasting! The idea of helping others is almost a sign of weakness in Western society. And people that need help are looked down on from reasoning that it's their own fault for needing help. We sure don't take this attitude towards our children, and we surely should not take it towards our brothers and sisters!
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 10, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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are you really saying the people in Asia are like ants
I would say that much like western countries they have had a tendency to act like ants once in a while.
Japan ,in the 1930s and 40s, in order to fulfill their grandiose collective narcissistic ambitions had to strive to keep individuation in ruthless check, over and above their normal cultural and historical status quo. This was required in order to maintain and supply the collective "false self" that was then evolving :The Emperor was God and the Japanese were a superior race destined for imperial Asiatic dominance, and so on.
In the West , especially the current democratic/capitalistic cultures , there is a tendency to restrict grandiose narcissistic ambitions, by and large ,to the atomized level of the individual.
Whenever grandiose aims do occur on the collective level they usually take the form of a sort of benign projection of self-referential "social justice" or technocratic superiority or corporate heavy-handedness---or whatever.
Today's Japan of course has sublimated all it's collective narcissism into forms that may or may not even be recognizable--- perhaps the more draconian expressions are presently dormant.
In any case, if it is ever reactivated then the ant-like approach will again go into hyperdrive ---as it once did in the western totalitarian states--- and may still do.
In most developed countries today a sort of low-grade ant-like behavior is readily apparent in most mass media, in fads and fashions and consumerism--- and has long been the occasion of much humor , and self -criticism--- as we all know.
The persistence of commonly shared modes of thought and action as reflected in the mass media and reinforced with political dominance, no matter how apparently benign , all contain a kernel of potential totalitarianism
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
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Ward: "It's hard to see how an attention schema, calibrated primarily to the processing of external stimuli, could on the face of it ,be very handy at dealing with multifactorial internal mental states, each with its own model."
This is a misinterpretation of Graziono's theory for the following reasons:
1) Attention and the attention schema are two different neural circuits.
2) Attention is what the brain does - it attends to both internal (top down bias - memories, etc) and external (bottom up bias - our senses, etc) stimuli.
3) The attention schema - what we are actually consciously aware of, is a pared down model of our attention, a 'cartoon'. It generally tracks with attention, but not always.
5) Given that our attention schema is a construct, decoupled from both internal and external stimuli - anything goes. Shared consciousness, out of body experiences, hallucinations, the presence of the Holy Spirit - anything can 'feel real'.
4) Attention and our attention schema are locked in a tight feedback loop - they inform each other. Graziono posits that this may be a primary reason why we 'feel' our experience subjectively - but not our model of others' experience. We don't have this feedback loop with regards to how we model what others are experiencing.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 10, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
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Tvish don't be a dick. if you can't hear regards to what you write about what someone else said maybe you shouldn't be here and let Damasio and Graziono speak for themselves?
MikeL, i really appreciate your perspective, maybe just don't respond directly to Tvish's ego? Obviously his ears aren't working
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 03:48pm PT
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So Ward, what you're saying is that we are a social species.
No argument there.
I'm reaaaally not sure any American can honestly point fingers at Japan, given that we've played (and still play today) many of the same hegemonic games - complete with a strong divine infallibility component, no less. That's not to say the Japanese were considerate and respectful tourists during their imperial expansion, mind you. Nor were we during our taking of this continent.
As far as out and out genocide - well, it would seem we're not unfamiliar with that game, either.
Shall I mention slavery?
Half the population of the most heavily armed nation in history still believes in the magical fairy kingdom way up in the sky and a good thing, too, because the End of the World is at hand. Not exactly a sound basis for decision making going forward into an era of resource depletion, overpopulation, and a less forgiving climate.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 10, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
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First some negative observations and then the positive.
In other words, the study focused on the benefits and drawbacks of introverts (people who are shy, socially inhibited and non-aggressive)
The very fact that introverted is defined this way, means the study was hopelessly biased from the start.I wouldn't call shy and socially inhibited introverted so much as an undeveloped, constrained, or asocial personality which can appear in either introverted or extroverted forms. What if their definitions had been an introvert is a person who chooses to direct most of their attention inward in order to be creative with ideas while an extrovert is a person who focusses on social relationships? Entirely different conclusions would ensue.
As for Japanese behaving like ants, don't forget they were told by their European mentors that they had to have an empire European style to be taken seriously as a modern country and a world power, while America's contributions to their decisions included the Oriental Exclusion Act and embargoing their steel and rubber supplies.
On the positive side, I agree with Blue that humility is a form of egolessness and that the highest level of losing one's ego is to help others out of joy rather than duty. This is known as the Boddhisattva mentality in Buddhism.
Meanwhile, I like the fact that tvash frames the question as being one of whether attention to specifics is our basic nature or formless awareness. That seems to me to get to the heart of the argument without any offending woo.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
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I would argue, as I always try to do, from an evolutionary standpoint - which creature has a better chance of survival - one that attends or one that simply is?
Again, I know where I'd place my bet.
I would therefore argue that the void state is more likely a construct available only to big brained creatures (perhaps just us) through apparently laborious and esoteric practice which relies on a form of self induced sensory deprivation. Like a Jackson Pollock, the design for a magnetohydrodynamic thruster, or the Bible, it is a byproduct of repurposed neural circuitry so rich that anything under the sun (or not) can be imagined and felt as real.
I would also argue that the universal oneness embodied in the void has a certain simple beauty, in that it appeals to our evolved social need for connection - to each other, to something timeless and universal - but aesthetics do not a species' survival enhance.
That is an argument against it being a proto or natural state, not the intrinsic value or profundity - both subjective calls, of that state. Buddhism teaches detachment from desire as a means of relieving suffering - after all, we eventually lose everything and need a way to cope with that rather unforgiving reality. The void is nothing - if one can find peaceful profundity there, so much the better.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
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1) Attention and the attention schema are two different neural circuits.
Grazino says,"attention is a data-handling METHOD, no substance, no flow"
And "attention schema" is just a theory.
NO circuits
maybe you should cut-paste, ur dictation sucks
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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Just back from OR.
Granziano's "attention schema" is full of half truths and approximations and he's got several key things bass-ackwards, especially the fiction that attention creates awareness - amongst others. These are based on wild guesses and attempts to square things according to his own experience or what he imagines is the case, as opposed to direct, empirical data drawn from experience. This, perforce, yields the wonky shite Tvash is trying to fob off in his contrasting meditation "states" with sensory depravation, and his subsequent day dreaming on the void and so forth. Far be it from Tvash to actually check out that terrain for his own self, believing as he does that the "void" is some place or state he could attain if only he were interested in same. These are grand illusions, to be sure.
Anyhow, I'll take a whack at sorting out Graziano's Attention Schema once I have time. Some of his ideas are worthwhile and have promise for further research. But not much. For those interested, the bulk of his theories are found in this article:
http://aeon.co/magazine/being-human/how-consciousness-works/
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
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From an alternative evolutionary point of view, simply being without complicated plans and goals may have been an adequate world view for millions of years, especialy before the invention of language. Why couldn't homonins have just been alive and also on alert as other animals seem to be? In fact that is the final goal of meditation in all the traditions I am aware of - to return to the world yet remain in the non ego state.
On the other hand, the fact that it is so hard to get to that state would suggest that it may not have been our original one.
I certainly don't know which it is, but feel at least we're getting a handle on what some of the major questions are beneath all the science vs woo posturing.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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I was under the impression, from Largo mostly, that the void was not attending to anything. I wasn't aware that ego v egoless played into it, other than the idea that ego is just one more thing one can attend to.
Animals attend all the time. If they don't, they tend to die sooner than later.
And do animals have ego? OH YEAH.
I once watched an alpha hyena continually taunt an alpha lion (on television, of course). The lion finally got pissed enough to get up and kill his tormentor.
That seemed to be a fairly ego-driven exchange to me.
Graziono states at the very beginning of his most recent book that his theory is, at this point, largely speculative in need of much further experimental support (as it must be, given the nascent state of technology in that field). Unlike Largo, however, his arguments are consistent, logical, and supported by considerable previous experimental evidence, such as it is, rather than just personal experience and an assumptive, self described expertise. The competing theories he critiques? Not so much.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
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I made the comments about Japan as a student of history and cultures and not strictly as an American harboring an " us or them " mentality.
That being said, Jan ,I'm afraid your defense of the Japanese during that period as being largely traceable to the declarations of Europeans or legislation in US---is absurd, and you must know that.
In response to Tvash I will however speak as an American and state that I consider his reflexive anti-Americanism formulaic, textbook, self-flagellating ,counterproductive, hackneyed masochistic,and the result of overbearing propaganda traceable to the baby boomer political and cultural regime currently getting smaller in the rear view mirror of history.
And yet it contains just enough residual and fast-vanishing truth to make me want to dismantle the United States and rebuild it after my own image. But not until I outlaw that pernicious and dastardly belief in fairies and somehow increase the labor pool of unaccompanied minors.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
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Ah, Ward, you should realize that I never self-flagellate in public.
Nobody wants to see that.
Sheesh.
I will compliment you for pulling a multi-state long train load of adjectives around like that. You are the little anjin san that could.
I'm also an American. I try to speak as a human, however.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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BTW Tvash , the plank you are demonstrating in your avatar photo is a low-grade plank.
Redo the photo with your body exactly parallel to the surface of the water and it will be aesthetically corrected.
Here is a correct plank:
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:48pm PT
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All we had available were cutthroat, but they didn't seem interested in cooperating.
Do you know how many people have asked me "How did you do that?"
Sigh.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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I'd like to take up the discussion on Graziano's theory perhaps later or tomorrow.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 10, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
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Roger.
I'm gone all next week teaching (and I use that term in the loosest possible sense) our youth how to potentially off themselves in the mountains.
No crying, now. It'll give Largo time to catch up. I'll see if I can plank a goat or something. Shouldn't be too hard if I urinate just prior.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 10, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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I'm gone all next week teaching (and I use that term in the loosest possible sense) our youth how to potentially off themselves in the mountains.
I immediately recognize this as code for "Saul Alinsky retreat for radicals" series of DNC urban seminars at an undisclosed Chicago location.
Monday's mandatory seminar: People's liberation of the Bit coin
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