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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Yet in the most practical terms & for better or worse, one is occasionally (rarely?) confronted with moral choice, a.k.a. free will.
interesting take on this... who decides what a "moral choice" is?
according to Christian ethics, gluttony is one of the capital sins. Let's consider gluttony as "a misplaced desire of food"
now tying back into the human as an ecology, our gut microbiome has a lot of influence on our "desire of food," perhaps the biochemical interaction between those individual organisms which are not a part of our body, and that body, conspire to have us act in a gluttonous manner.
Christian ethics assumes that our desire for food is something we control with our "free will." That is, we are in complete control of our "appetitie." What happens when that assumption is biologically incorrect, that our "desire" isn't due to our free choice, that our choices are manipulated by gut microbes?
Are we our microbes keeper?
So free will would seem to be a more complex issue.
Given that a huge portion of our population is "obese," it would seem that confronting moral choice (at least for Christians) is not so rare...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Blue should read it just to see another totally different view of spirituality
Thanks Jan, it was quite good.
After I read it the first thing The Spirit put on my conscious was a quote by Jesus, " Be in this world, but not of it". What the author called "Hinduism" seems rooted in believing morales and living a good life, with an understanding that man has the propensity to be evil. Fine and dandy. And we can get into the karma thing later if you want?
From my perspective of the article , The Teachers of "Hinduism" are teaching as if EVERYONE is Hindu, by that I mean everyone in a so-called country. IE, the poor, the wealthy, the TacoBell worker, the trashpickerupper, the policeman and even the Politicians. Everyone. And that they should set up their society and even government to conform, or try and do right by these morales and better ways of living. I'm not sure, are there governments today that have a "Hindu" influence?
A government with any religious bias is a problem, IMO. Jesus said a man can't have two masters. And He definitely demonstrated that the government should not be in the church and the church should not be in government. This takes me back to " be in this world but not of it" God knows that all men/women in this world are not holy, and the m/w of this world will run it. God didn't put us here to start His government, that's Heaven! And were seeing today the ravages in the mid-east of religious ran governments. America at its best is an example to the world how a religious based community can provide an unbiased government. But it has gotten murky.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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How about a man with no masters?
Is no masters good for you?
A Guy who lies about His own existence - when he's not burning folk for eternity (ya couldn't settle for a million years, couldja?) doesn't seem, you know, like a very good place to put one's trust.
Just sayin.
Now back to free will...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nice one Ed
The part about the bugs is appealing, but this needs help;
Christian ethics assumes that our desire for food is something we control with our "free will." That is, we are in complete control of our "appetitie."
Desires can be a sin, so the free will is appropriate. What we do for our desire of a T-bone when we should be happy with the hamburger in the fridge is our choice. If our desire causes us to eat 3 T-bones. That's gluttony. A Christian knows he has to provide nourishment for the body and it shouldn't entangle any emotions, other than being thankful to The Provider!
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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There are scientists and then there are scientists on this thread (Jan)
How can you tell the difference?
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WBraun
climber
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Consciousness reveals everything.
Nothing can hide from it ......
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MH2
climber
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I don't need everything, Consciousness, just where I last put my spectacles.
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WBraun
climber
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Many splash in the shallow end of the pool.
Very few are found in the deep deepest
Everything = achintya bheda bheda tattva
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Cannonball!
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Ed: Our "health" is more tied up with the health of that ecosystem then we ever thought of before (but Werner will no doubt remind me that that is an old idea).
I've been instructed that much of what goes on among people cannot be characterized. When I walk into a room, and a colleague says, "Hi, Mike. Good morning!" I hear it as a greeting. There are so many things are going on at so many different levels in our interactions with people. One cannot really say just what they are.
I see a superior / colleague / subordinate / friend in the hallway, and we exchange pleasantries. Just how many things would you have learned or considered if you were fully psychologically present? More than you could really say, I'd bet. (See the "tacit knowledge" by Michael Polanyi).
The focus on the "I" is not quite right in all these conversations, if I can give my 2 cents, the "I" is not a separate self, but it is a self. Getting the self properly in view is like ranging with a telephoto lens. There is a proper depth-of-field that is necessary to bring it into full distinct view from everything else.
I have lived many lives. Who and what I am (or have been) have been highly reliant upon where I was at and with whom (or so it seems). Different environment, different Michael. Yet within that amalgam of personalities (teacher, husband, biker, friend, teacher, independent soul, etc.), there seems to be a core personality.
But, I'm joking, right? The definition of a core personality is a choice. And I must say I'm not sure who's choosing it. Me? Ha-ha. My close posse? Hmmmm, maybe. My extended personal network of friends and acquaintances? Maybe. How about just ME from My perspective?
It's completely unsolvable just who I am. Do I know who (what) I am?
Once I release myself to that possibility--that I might be nothing, nobody, a wisp of fascination--then I begin to see who and what I am in a completely organic way.
Neither the "I" or "not-I" satisfies me. I am intractable. No one can get a handle on me. I am indescribable.
When you open yourself to simply your pristine experience, experience as experience rawly, then you begin to get a grasp of IT, yourself.
There is no religion in this. This, if you can see it, is simply what you are: ungraspable, indescribable, infinite in so many ways.
There are no mistakes.
Science has surged forward and broken so much new ground into this fabric of the universe. It's a landscape that seems to be painted by someone mad. How exquisite. The objectivity of IT.
On the other hand, there is experience . . . subjectivity. It cannot be accurately or fully described. It transcends itself by being boundless. This is the place for people who don't need to talk about anything. Experience cannot be put into words or metrics. It transcends both. Bummer, sure, but . . . hey, you have wondrous experiences, don't you? (You can't get too sad about what you see.)
I can't say enough how much I see that we are all exactly where we are suppose to be. I am stuck on a level (as it were), and am limited by my past experiences. So, I am here. You are where you are at. Simple, no?
I look out at others, and I think: oh, so sad. There they are unhappy (for whatever reason). I wish I could help (but knowing that it's always an inside job).
Nothing is wrong. Everything is right.
When you understand that, then you can just relax. Everything that you see is just perfect.
It's amazing (or infinitely stupid) that EVERYTHING seems to be engineered to be exactly perfect for every living being. (Wuups, hold on! That's impossible.)
And, There it is.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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"There are scientists and then there are scientists on this thread (Jan)
How can you tell the difference?"
Easy. Do they still have an open mind or not?
If they do, they're real scientists.
The others are just posers.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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And for Blue.
"From my perspective of the article , The Teachers of "Hinduism" are teaching as if EVERYONE is Hindu"
This reminds me of a time when I was seated next to a Hindu chaplain at a U.S. military social function. We had a very interesting conversation about India and Indian religion and at one point he said to me, "You know I am really tired of Christians trying to convert me. I'm Hindu, so I'm already Christian.I already know that Jesus was an incarnation of Vishnu so why would I need to convert?".
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MH2
climber
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//Although small children have taboos against stepping on ants because such actions are said
to bring on rain, there has never seemed to be a taboo against pulling off the legs or wings of
flies. Most children eventually outgrow this behavior. Those who do not either come to a bad
end or become biologists.//
Anyone with a genuine love of nature, an insatiable curiosity about life, a soaring imagination, devilish ingenuity, the patience of Job, and the ability to read has the basic ingredients and most of the necessary accoutrements to become a first-class biologist. The only necessary item remaining is an experimental animal (or plant). There is much to be said for the fly.
Chrysalis:
"The whole earth is quivering,
Something mighty it is delivering,
I am being born."
Moth:
"Unravel life. What are we else,
We, woven from daintiest fabrics,
But thought and soul of creation?"
Josef and Karel Capek, The Life of the Insects
No less a person than St. Augustine remarked in the Fourth Century: "For it is inquired, what causes those members so diminutive to grow, what leads so minute a body here and there according to its natural appetite, what moves its feet in numerical order when it is running, what regulates and gives vibrations to its wings when flying? This thing whatever it is in so small a creature towers up so predominantly to one well considering, that it excels any lightning flashing upon the eyes."
[ electrical events can be recorded in the brain of the fly]
//as a scientific article of faith we believe that what the fly does is somehow related to these
events. What Sherrington, the great English physiologist, has said of other brains describes
equally well the speck, the bit of tissue, the spark that is the fly: "An enchanted loom where
millions of flashing shuttles weave a dissolving pattern, always a meaningful pattern though
never an abiding one . . ."//
A good look at how one scientist thought, though he may have called himself an investigator:
To Know a Fly
Vincent Dethier
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Americans have soon killed off their bees. Stupid monocultures, people seeing bees as producers. What will the non-pollination consequences be? Who's making the profit from this death?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^ only Lucifer.
And maybe scientist. They are the ones that concocked the formulas for killing little bug life that lives on "our" fruits and vegetables. Which is now wiping out Bee populations. Once their gone I'm sure science will "save the day" by concocting polenization, which will surely have destructive side effects, which again they'll have to remedy.
Can't knock science though, it's brought us all things to make life easier and more pleasurableˇ Oh yea, and we know Mars is rocky and dry.
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MH2
climber
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Who's making the profit from this death?
Follow the money. I doubt it will lead you to many scientists.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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DMT
Pesticides are surely part of it. And as I've heard, more and more farmers are also moving their bees around to where the pollinating monoculture flowers are. The bees are kept productive. And the colonies are made smaller and smaller. They want each bee to produce more...
Possibly a combination of factors?
Or just the pesticide producers trying to confuse us?
Has anyone mentioned people? Is someone working long days in an open area "efficient" office landscape?
MH2
Scientists are often used as useful idiots by the industries.
If bees die and natural pollination is lost and someone will sell substitute products or sell industrialized pollination - who are the best candidates to earn the money?
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MH2
climber
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Yes, well, there are scientists and then there are scientists.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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DMT
Conspiracies of the Grand I'm not talking Conspiracies of the Grand. I'm talking flawes inherent in the American system.
As in:
Who earns the money when guns are sold without control and far more people are killed by guns than in any other part of the Western world? Who are the prime movers or lobbyists for a no-control gun selling system? Who are paying the politicians?
The system is flawed and the flawes are useful to the money-ed interests. They can earn more money because of the bad consequences (death and fear) of the inherently flawed system. They have the formal "right" to earn the Money, lobby among politicians and so on. And ethics is just used as a image-building and brand-building tool.
You also say: we are all bee killers
I think it's a bad idea to put everybody in the same category, like you do. That's just cheap rhetoric. What do the industrialized farming lobbyists have in common with the industrialized farming critics. Are they all bee killers?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^ I guess it's a good thing Bees showed up prior to man on the evolutionary scale, otherwise man wouldn't have ever became to bee? It makes one wonder how plants even made it?
Tragedy of the Commons, we are all bee killers.
WE? What do you got a Bee in ur pocket? Don't include us in your murdering
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