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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
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I think he was at least trying. It's a true apology, and maybe a good start toward avoiding such "total-lack-of-thinking" choices in the future.
But was this really necessary:
I understand that I am a high-profile sponsored climber...
Are you really high-profile? If so, then here's one more thing to think about (and maybe learn from). Warren Harding was high-profile too. And when faced with a similar choice on the Leaning Tower, he left the "evil tree" intact.
Many or most of the posters here have since climbed past that tree, fearing as they did a splinter enema. This danger has since become a great tradition, a source of stories.
I've never met you Joe, and probably never will. I think that I am a lot older than you, so let me patronize you with a word of advice: What you've climbed in the past or will climb in the future doesn't matter. It's all quite forgettable. On the other hand, how you treat other people and things will ultimately matter much, much more.
I've met lots of "high profile" climbers over the years. And for the reasons described above, I've never forgotten Ron Kauk, who I met 20 years ago and have seen a few times since. He's a great climber. But I only remember some of his climbs and achievements.
What I really recall about Ron is how he treated me, an inexperienced little piss-ant, and how I've seen him treat other people and things. He's humble, kind and concerned, and I've never forgotten my encounters with him.
Are you that way Joe?
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
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He's from NH, so I'm sure he has climbed on the sweet granite that the Gunks has to offer.
Let's just start calling all rock granite. Easier that way.
;-)
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
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Good point.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
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All trees are now officially junipers, too.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
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Well, I guess you have to give him credit for finally responding and apologizing, although I agree with Canyoncat that he's still kinda not getting it. It's good that he put in a word about Ethan's role. Joe strikes me as immature and evidently just ignorant. Is he quite young? Doesn't know what a juniper is??? Little tree sure doesn't look dead in the pre-photo BTW so I call BS on that.
Joe: As the developer of this route, I wanted to leave behind a resource for everybody,
EVERYBODY would include EVERYBODY... hikers, bikers, the great-grandchildren of those hikers, etc... not just "me-now" sport climbers.
My main goal when it comes to putting up a new route is: Will this climb be something high-quality, something safe and something that climbers will enjoy? I try to make decisions that answer those questions as best as possible.
... and when the answer to that question was "no"... this route should have never been put up.
I DO think the sponsors should be notified. No one has bad-mouthed them.. just listed the ones that employ Joe. Sponsored climbers obviously feel pressure to perform. It's the expectation of new route development and fancy photos that nurtures the mentality behind these types of fiascoes. It seems to be happening more and more lately and the gear companies have a responsibility IMO.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
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Hey Dingus, remind me, what did you do with the "Forefathers" junipers near the base of the Forefathers Wall?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
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We all have skeletons in our closet and done something stupid in the hills. He who is without sin can beat their chest online.
I wish I lived so tightly wrapped around dogma and principles that the world was black and white. Seems like an easy way to go about business.
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BurntToast
climber
CA
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
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Anyone know what the applicable laws regulating unauthorized tree cutting are in this area?
Fines? Possible jail time? Plea bargain for public service?
Seems like a slam dunk case given the public admission of guilt.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 20, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
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In a perfect world these two and the two goblin topplers would appear before the same magistrate at the same time and be assigned as cell mates for a month or so, then tasked together for 500 hours or so of trash picking.
It will be interesting to watch the sponsors reactions.
Collectively we WILL be paying attention.
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rnevius
Trad climber
The Range of Light
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Oct 20, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
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I always find it weird that a fine is used as retribution for things like this. If only consequences were crafted as if they had been directly influenced by the wrongdoing that had been committed. Instead, let's hit him/them with an arbitrary fine and call things good and dandy.
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BurntToast
climber
CA
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Oct 20, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
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Thanks,
https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev3_054750.pdf
Sec. 261.6 Timber and other forest products.
The following are prohibited:
(a) Cutting or otherwise damaging any timber, tree, or other forest
product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber
sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.
Sec. 261.1b Penalty.
Any violation of the prohibitions of this part (261) shall be
punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more
than six months or both pursuant to title 16 U.S.C., section 551,
unless otherwise provided
$175 to $500 seems way to low to me.
Home owners can apparently be fined several tens of thousands of dollars and/or serve jail time for tree cutting to improve their view:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-12-treecutting_N.htm
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Oct 20, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
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I'm just glad there has been a first person account of this incident.
Now people can decide how they want to respond, based on facts presented by Joe Kinder himself.
There have been a lot of well thought-out comments from posters to this thread. This comment echoed my own views on the subject:
Time for sponsors to stop pouring resources into more "radness" and start investing in education about the natural world we share. Honestly, who gives a fuk about another 5.14a?
Or another 15a for that matter? Personally I don't pay any attention to what climbers a particular company sponsors. It's only the quality of the product that matters to me. But I certainly pay attention when climbers behave badly and threaten the natural environment that we love and as a consequence and secondarily, also threaten our access to the rock.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 20, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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And from the perfectly selfish point of view.
This transgression is one more blight upon climbers' public image.
In fairness, I'm pretty certain the government land managers won't tar us all with the same brush.
It appears that we as a climbing community have some environmental outreach to do. We've hassled about bolts, trail cutting, use trails, marking works in progress, even dogs at the crag. And a dozen other things we do to the "wilderness" in our pursuits.
I never thought we'd have to be concerned with ancient Junipers. Had always thought their value was obvious and THEY would be sacrosanct.
mea culpa
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Lurking Fear
Boulder climber
Bishop, California
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Oct 20, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
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I think GDavis says it best. We've all done stupid things in the mountains. Joe did a stupid thing and he'll probably get dumped by all his sponsors. That a big deal when you've never really paid for gear and shoes, and don't really work.
Back in the 80s at the Knobby Wall in Yosemite, some high profile climbers, including one posting on this thread, cut down a bay tree to reveal a V4 boulder problem. We can't tolerate bad behavior in the mountains, but we don't need to crucify the perpetrator either.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 20, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
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Politicians and evangelists have set the standard.....NOBODY apologizes until they are caught....and some do it better than others.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Oct 20, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
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Well said Lurking Fear / GDavis.
Kinder blew it , he will suffer the consequences.
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone...."
John Chapter 8 verse 7 .
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Oct 20, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
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I think GDavis says it best. We've all done stupid things in the mountains. Joe did a stupid thing and he'll probably get dumped by all his sponsors. That a big deal when you've never really paid for gear and shoes, and don't really work.
Back in the 80s at the Knobby Wall in Yosemite, some high profile climbers, including one posting on this thread, cut down a bay tree to reveal a V4 boulder problem. We can't tolerate bad behavior in the mountains, but we don't need to crucify the perpetrator either.
Yes, we have all done stupid things. Yes, forgiveness and understanding are great things. So is being held accountable.
I have a question for all of you that are preaching for tolerance and moving on: what should be the consequences? Joe is, according to his website, one of the most influential climbers in the world today. Shouldn't we expect just a little more from him than this? Should his apology, riddled with 1/2 truths and spray, be enough? Should we, as a community give folks who pull this sh#t a free pass as long as they just plead ignorance?
I don't want to lynch the guy. I just feel that there is more damage control than true remorse in his apology and think that all this talk of forgiveness is way premature.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
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Oct 20, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
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So in a nutshell from his "apology":
He's a rad climber who got permission from a Tahoe crag developer to use his vision and experience to put up a new route and thought nothing of chopping down an old growth tree cause it was in the way of where he wanted his bold new rad route to start. So he just happened to have a hacksaw handy and chop it down while his friend Ethan Pringle - a California climber he notes - stood by and watched but had nothing to do with it. So it was okay. Cause the tree could have hurt someone trying to do the route he envisioned. Tree was down, they had a great time climbing the new route. Problem solved, now on to the next crag.
Then he left and got a call from the area developer and was SHOCKED and HEARTBROKEN that people were unhappy with the fact he chopped down a tree instead of fawning over his brilliant new line. And it wasn't just a tree, it was a JUNIPER! That those ancient roots that intertwined through the rock weren't enough to tell him it was an old tree that had weathered centuries at the base of that rock. Oh woe is him...he was just trying to make a bold, SAFE new route for climbers for years to come and he's so sorry a JUNIPER paid the price. Cause again, new routing is an art and the tree was in the way of some major brilliance of one of the best new routes in the USA.
But ultimately it's okay cause his buddy Dean Potter told him the fallen tree is fine with it and having a good laugh about it now cause we're all one with nature.
Unbelievable.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 20, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
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I give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that he is truly sorry, even if he is incapable of expressing it to everyone's satisfaction. Is that enough? I don't think so, but who am I to decide?
We have laws that protect natural resources. Sounds like the fine could be as high as $500. Is that enough? I don't think so, but who am I to decide?
Some suggested community service, preferably restoration of some sort. They ALWAYS need folks to help pull invasive species, clean up trash in the wilderness (especially after the shut down, the place is a fuking mess), etc. Is that enough? I don't think so, but who am I to decide?
I'd like to see him write a 5 page report (single spaced, 10 pt font, regular margins, figures don't count) and/or public presentation on the natural history and/or ecology of every area he visits. His grade would determine how much gear/$ he gets... -10 pts for every time he mentions how rad he or his lines are... but who am I to decide.
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