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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:02am PT
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Roy/Tarbuster:
I would absolutely love to know whether or not you can go back to the point prior to having deleted all of Kevin Worrall's posts.
Unfortunately, there is no such ability. The site is relatively simple. When things are deleted, they are actually deleted, permanently.
This is another reason why important climbing history content should not be hosted here and instead relocated to a site like Wikipedia that is set up for that kind of content. We simply don't have the features or resources to properly host or preserve climbing history information. On the other hand, Wikipedia does have those kinds of features and resources available for free public use, today.
ß Î Ø T Ç H:
I'm not sure what your point is on the image you posted above, which appears to be a photoshopped image of a bunch of business partners. If you don't have or own the rights to that image, then please remove it as it would violate our Terms of Service. It doesn't appear it is in use anywhere but your post above.
Jan:
I do hope ST and the climbing community can establish a non-profit archive for all the history on this site.
My personal feeling is that climbing history information would still be better off on a site like Wikipedia, since their resources are vast, and they have the staff and infrastructure to manage information of a historical nature properly. A non-profit SuperTopo would still be challenged by resources, and the cost to duplicate what Wikipedia already has would be substantial. I think that in any scenario, the authors of content that has true climbing history value should relocate their contributions to Wikipedia. There is no reason to wait either. Wikipedia is ready and able to host that kind of historical content today.
Wikipedia and their stated mission is a very good fit for hosting climbing history info:
The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:06am PT
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Just catching up with what’s going on...I like the idea of creating a forum non- profit. I nominate Roy McC for President!!!
I will finally have time tomorrow to go through my photos. I don’t think there is anything in there but I will check.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:22am PT
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If you dont have a lawyer and talk to the other side I strongly disagree. I will know more about the matter than anyone and I am in the best position to resolve it quickly and for the least amount if money. Communication is good, and after lawyers are involved you’ll likely be cut off. The mantra that lawyers billing 100’s an hour are the only ones capable of figuring the matter out is a joke - those guys fuk things up just as much if not more often. Also, for many reasons mostly ethical, there is no way in hell they’d mention that conversation directly in court.
That said it’s not for everyone nor for every case.
Another tidbit from my experience is that it’s not in the financial interest of the lawyer to efficiently resolve your matter, which can also be used against the person suing you.
this stuff makes me feel like I have a skull about 4 feet thick. Good law and the correct interpretation of it shouldn’t have this effect - is a sign from my experience.
IMO, all will be clear in a few months that everything was [mostly] fine and really only needed a few surgical interventions.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 20, 2019 - 06:53am PT
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For this forum going forward, should we add a tag to our photos--if we choose--that gives credit for re-posting? As poster said, sometimes we "quote" the photo to make a point/joke/etc.
BAd
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Apr 20, 2019 - 07:57am PT
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Although it is after-the-fact for me it is helpful to see rj's clarifications. Yesterday I deleted those photos I had uploaded here which I thought might be a problem. I did it in a spirit of gratitude and sympathy for the site providers.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:01am PT
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If you don't own the photo just hot link it from where the original is located.
[img]
[/img]
But it now simply redirects to the original location.... boring.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:41am PT
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Wikipedia is an encyclopedia meaning that it's style is formal and academic complete with footnotes. It's good for a quick lookup to see the exact elevation of a Himalayan peak or who did a first ascent, although I've made corrections to a few of their articles. It also has a fair number of climber bios.
This is not the same however as the personal stories of how the ascents there and in the Valley actually were done, let alone the life style and philosophy of those accomplishing such feats. That is (or was) found only on Supertopo.
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Bushman
climber
Venus photo -taken by bushman
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:49am PT
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Deleted all images in question from photo file in my settings. Hope that satisfies conditions required by the administrators. Trying to decide whether or not to have account/content deactivated/deleted but have mixed feelings about it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:49am PT
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This is not the same however as the personal stories of how the ascents there and in the Valley actually were done, let alone the life style and philosophy of those accomplishing such feats. That is (or was) found only on Supertopo. Yes, Jan: exactly so!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:52am PT
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I would encourage you to leave your content intact, Tim. You've put up so much good stuff!
But if you were to delete it, I'd certainly understand, and I've never begrudged anyone for doing it.
I've spoken with a few people off line who asked that their accounts be struck clean. Once they decide for themselves that it's the way to go, out of perspective, and respect, I always wholeheartedly support it as a highly personal choice.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 20, 2019 - 08:55am PT
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How is ST handling this sort of image?
Public domain images of high quality.
You can find thousands of high quality public domain images on Pexels. The search function below allows you to search for various keywords and images of all kinds of topics. Since the public domain images on Pexels are all licensed under a creative commons zero license you can download and use them for free even for commercial purposes.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:03am PT
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By the time you get to the MSJ stage in federal court you are at least six figures in the hole.
Please cite your sources for this claim.
In point of fact, MSJ can be filed even prior to discovery. It can be filed at any time, including five minutes after the suit was filed. In point of fact, it's a timed game to file, with the emphasis on quickly, as you have no more than 30 days after the end of discovery. But sooner is better, and there is no general limitation on how quickly you CAN file a MSJ (some local court rules affect this, so I'm making a general statement).
So, please explain in detail how you're out six figures within five minutes on a safe harbor MSJ.
Awnsering the complaint costs four to five figures, easy.
Again, cite your sources for this claim. It is true that many attorneys will TRY to milk a case for all they can. It's how they make a living, after all. But I've referred to a COMPETENT attorney. A COMPETENT attorney will not "answer the complaint" and charge a mint in an obviously safe harbor case. S/he will simply file the MSJ citing safe harbor.
ONLY if that is denied and the whole response/discovery phase ensues will you start to be out the big bucks. But in that case, you're pretty screwed anyway, because it never should have gotten that far. If it is a clear-cut safe harbor case, and you have a competent attorney, it almost certainly won't.
Competent attorney, remember. S/he is going to tell you within ten minutes that yours is either a clear-cut safe harbor case or it isn't. If it's not, you're screwed. But in the case of SuperTopo, it certainly is, as SuperTopo is clearly a "provider" in the same sense as YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and countless others.
Now, all bets are off if the site was directly publishing copyrighted material, in which case the Forrest ruling would come into play. So, for example, if the site owners are themselves publishing copyrighted material (e.g., "old," scanned articles), then EVEN IF THERE IS NO COMPLAINT regarding THOSE materials, the site is almost certainly going to lose the safe harbor defense to a suit regarding other materials.
With respect to the substantive law, I have an office next to an IP lawyer so I must know something!
Yeah, that says a boatload.
Regardless, a non-profit with Wiki type format does seem the way to go.
Regarding the Facebook question above from Don Paul, that has been my point all along. Safe Harbor is a provision that protects venue providers, not just ISPs, from liability regarding what their USERS post... assuming that the provider complies with some basic thresholds of responsibility, just as SuperTopo HAS done all along. That's why the PLATFORM isn't sued out of existence for what it's USERS do!
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Bushman
climber
Venus photo -by bushman
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:20am PT
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the gutting of supertopo
I woke up one morn
to the gutting of supertopo
wringing my hands
I cried uhoh and ohno
some were chopped by the ax
some fled and some stood
to protest in defiance
as predicted they would
standing at the sidelines
I carefully considered
all options to be weighed
as the vine dried and withered
so now sets the sunset
come the reaper or harrow
leaving only the sunrise
to reveal what’s tomorrow
at the outset were family
where some friends stood as one
then the world became fractured
and some ties were undone
but life shall go on
least outside of this form
remembering the real world
to return to the norm
So either way, it’s all good 👍🏼
Thanks Roy, no hurry no worries,
-bushman
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:29am PT
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Awnsering the complaint costs four to five figures, easy. Telling someone over the phone to go pound sand is free!
You guys are in la-la land. This case gets passed to insurance while the plaintiff has no such luxury - so there better be a pile of cash and high odds of getting it - but there isn’t - so this case isn’t going anywhere.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:40am PT
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^^^ Also a very good and important point.
It's pointless to argue the technicalities of filing for summary judgment and what it might, in some theoretical world, cost.
This site's owners have decided that they are extremely risk-averse, which is their right. I assert that they need not be so risk-averse and that SuperTopo could continue indefinitely on precisely its present model. But that "could" has no normative force, and I do not imply any!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 20, 2019 - 09:54am PT
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This is another reason why important climbing history content should not be hosted here and instead relocated to a site like Wikipedia that is set up for that kind of content. We simply don't have the features or resources to properly host or preserve climbing history information. On the other hand, Wikipedia does have those kinds of features and resources available for free public use, today.
But RJ, Chris specifically told us (in writing) that all the historical content was safe and sound. This was about 2012 or so, I have pulled it up several times but don't know where it is at the moment. In essence he said 'many of you have asked about all the historical content, is it safe? Rest assured it is very secured. we have expanded our server capabilities and take the job of storing it very seriously'. blah blah blah
Not mincing words there, that was indeed the honest to gawd promise from CMac.
So what gives with that? Can you just answer that question without sounding like a lawyer?
Arne
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:15am PT
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ionlyski:
Chris specifically told us (in writing) that all the historical content was safe and sound. This was about 2012 or so
I can't speak for Chris, but I can assure you that Chris is an honest and straight-forward person.
I am confident he meant exactly what he said in 2012 (although I'm not personally familiar with the post you refer to).
But, that doesn't mean he'd say the same thing today.
My personal point of view is that this experience has proven to us all that SuperTopo does not have the functionality or resources to serve as a suitable long-term home for important climbing history information. We are not set up to be able to assure any content on this site is preserved in the manner climbing history content deserves. And, we never have been.
We simply have no way to do some of the key things Wikipedia offers such as a reliable and secure technical infrastructure, processes and people to do proper vetting of content, copyright right validation systems in place -- both people and technology -- that assure no copyright violating content is posted on Wikipedia. We have no ability to flag certain content as "historic" and thus provide it special handling even if the author requests their content be removed, or if we decide to do the same. And, it would not be surprising if some of the content that is perceived as historic at first blush was revealed to be based in part on copyright infringing material that would need to be removed when looked at through the lens of careful inspection.
The authors of historic climbing content posted on SuperTopo should please take steps to relocate it somewhere else soon since it cannot really be assured of long-term viability here. If we didn't realize that a month ago, or 7 years ago when Chris made the comment you refer to, we certainly realize it today. SuperTopo has just never been designed or resourced to provide a safe, sustainable home for climbing history content. I think that good intentions need to give way to the reality that climbing history, and the proper vetting and preservation of that climbing history, begs for more functionality and resources than SuperTopo is able to provide.
On the other hand, the Warren Harding page seems like a great example of how Wikipedia can serve the purpose of capturing climbing history very well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Harding_(climber);
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:29am PT
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I can assure you that Chris is an honest and straight-forward person.
Absolutely no doubt about that but the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 20, 2019 - 10:44am PT
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RJ:
If I upload a professional photographer's image that I don't have the rights to use, that is an infringement. I can't get around copyright infringement simply by noting their name in the photographer's credit. I'd need to somehow have obtained the right to use a photo that is the copyright property of someone else.
There is NOTHING about this statement that is correct. NOTHING.
You keep commenting, RJ, about copyright infringement, although you clearly don't have any idea of the legalities of the situation. This is troubling, as THIS IS YOUR BUSINESS! As a professional author that publishes monthly, I'm quite familiar with the subject. However, as has been previously mentioned, an attorney who specializes in Intellectual Property would do you a lot of good.
Suffice it to say that there is a very important part of copyright law that allows the use of even a professional photographer's image, without their permission. legally. without breaking copyright law.
Lets look at the words of the US Govt on the issue:
Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses—such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research—as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use.
https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html
And yet, you reject the actual law, in favor of your own "law", in which you contradict yourselves over and over again (Title of this thread: "Please do not upload images you don't own on SuperTopo", while in this thread, you, personally, state that is perfectly fine, "if you have permission".)
You state that your pictures of you by your dead climbing partner are ok, because you say they are. You say that he gave you permission to use them, and I don't doubt that. However, you are NOT the copyright owner. That passed to his heirs upon his death, not to you, and the lawful owners might have a different opinion at this time. You have no written evidence that you've provided that he gave you permission, and you can't get it from him now! However, it is TOTALLY FINE for you to use these pictures under "Fair Use"!!!!!
I have not yet seen a photo on this site that violates copyright law.
You might consider that accusing someone of committing a criminal act that they have not committed is problematic, and that taking an action against them based on that incorrect assumption is a much bigger issue.
I also take you and Chris at your word: you have not been sued, you have only been threatened with a POSSIBLE suit. Your words. So all I have to do is have a scumball attorney write you a letter that you are violating some obscure publishing law you don't really understand, that you have violated by allowing people with the letter "A" in their names to post, and you will respond by removing every such person from your customer base??
Don't be those manipulated guys. Be the adult in the room.
Attorneys on this Board, stand up and be counted!
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