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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 30, 2006 - 08:53pm PT
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El Cap Fool writes:
Either you can do a climb the way somebody else did, or you can't. And if you can't, what in the hell gives you the right to not let anybody else try?
bolded by me to agree loudly!
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:00pm PT
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Since you are so hung up on accurate analogies,
The relevant question is how many did I add?
On FA's? 3.
On repetes? That would be none.
Ditto on trenching.
I replaced a few rivets and bolts, but that is different.
Until you've hauled 2 bags on equalized hooks,
You need to pipe down.
Since we're checking resumes, How many natural belays have you built? How many times have you tied ropes together to reach a spot to make a natural belay.
Who the hell do you think you're talking to?
edit-
"Everyone has the right to skip bolts they don't think they need. You can try Henious Cling the way Jonny Woodward did it back in the day, just take a stack of rp's and have at it."
Someday you'll realize the flaw in that logic, and when you do, you're going to feel like an idiot.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:00pm PT
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Right...but not ability. A bolt on a route is part of everyone's experience who climbs that route. Whether they choose to use it or not, they have to spend some part of their climb looking at and considering hardware instead of rock.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
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"Everyone has the right to skip bolts they don't think they need."
Going on 400 posts and you roll out the lamest of the bankrupt arguments proffered by 'safe climbing' apologists? That pretty well wraps it up if we're down to that one...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
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Did I get 400?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
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Woohoo!
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
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Solo, everthing else is a compromise.rg
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:19pm PT
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I could be argued that just as the "you can just skip bolts" argument is questionable, so, in many cases is the argument that the issue is about "geting better" and waiiting until "you're ready" for some of these climbs.
In some cases, the issue is, even if you are good enough, are you prepared to be killed or maimed if you get a cramp, hit by a big pebble, or step on some sand? Some of the stuff in question (not BY which folks have whipped and been Ok on) is just death.
So, somewhere down the line in the history of the sport, folks are going to ask, how much contrived forced soloing do we permit the stone to locked up with? I don't know what they will answer. My answer is to leave it alone but ask the question before it's too late to have an influence.
If you are a 5.13 climber and some 5.11 climber dies on your 5.9 no bolt pitch, will you feel "Tough, they knew the risk" or "Hmm, maybe I took raised the bar a little too high for that particular bit of stone"
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
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"how much contrived forced soloing"
Sorry...but soloing is less contrived than a climb with any bolts on it at all. And there ain't no one forcing no one else to go do any climb. It's a personal choice that some folks want to make precisely because it less them push their limits with a minimum of contrivance.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
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I've posted my real name several times.
And I have actively avoided fame, so I don't care you've never heard of me, that's the way I want it.
Are we to take that to mean your real name is Wesley Christ?
Look dude, you're just wrong. You don't know it yet, but wisdom is earned. I'm not saying you're going to have an epiphany and repent all at once, but you're either going to die young, or live to regret this attitude.
I'm all done with you, you just make me angry.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:31pm PT
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I get the distinct feeling Todd is laughing at us...
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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Nov 30, 2006 - 09:41pm PT
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Lots of silly chest beating on this thread. I have no problem with rap-bolted sport climbs if that is the ethic of the crag. I also put up routes ground-up in the areas where that is the ethic. This also happens to work out well as my local area (Sandias) granite tends to be sh#t on the last 50-100' at the top of the formations. Repeated raps through vertical death cookies to access a route for rap-bolting sucks and thus the ground-up ethic makes lots of sense.
That said it is time-consuming (the last two routes took a year each) and scary to do routes ground-up. Since our rock is less bullet than other areas the fear is as much for your belayer getting wiped out by falling rock as for yourself falling while leading. Even with the slow pace and fear it remains the most satisfying and adventuresome way to put up a new route. There is never a lack of adventure and that is something that you hope all other climbers repeating the route can appreciate (though they never quite will have the same feeling of not knowing what is coming up). Even after completing pitches ground-up I try to think about whether a pitch needs any fixed gear (if we did it without) and if it does I have no problem placing it on rappel.
The crappiest thing that can occur while putting up routes ground-up is if you do botch a bolt placement due to fear, a shitty stance, whatever. If this occurs, it is worth thinking long and hard about what you have just done and be prepared to add, move, or remove a bolt or pin to make to make better route. Nothing sucks worse than fixed pro that is poorly placed due to doing something stupid on lead and then thinking the botch job will just end being your legacy.
All of this being equal, you hope you learn more with each new route and constantly improve your style and strive for something more. I am still blown away by the folks who preceded me in this area and I hope to live up to their best examples.
PS I hope the vertical death cookie description keeps everyone off my undone new lines.
Hasta, Guillermo.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 30, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
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"Agreed. This is the way to go. If you don't like the bolts, don't clip them.
The botch jobs are slowly getting weeded out, meanwhile the free soloists still get to have all the challenge and danger they want. ""
Oh my, it's the double dog dare of 'don't clip'em' AND 'just free solo instead'. That's twice the innanity and cluelessness from the 'climbing absolutely must be safe at any cost' crowd. Once again, maybe consider equipping routes with a few internal resources before leaping for your drill.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 30, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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Nice post Hedge. I more or less agree with you.
I'm of the mind to let the community deal with things in time and take no action myself, but I think you stated the case.
Peace
karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 30, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
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Wow - score one for the gridbolters! Karl goes over to the dark side and joins the crew who wants to grid bolt everything and then tell those throwbacks still interested in "adventure" to just clip every third one or none at all. I'm impressed.
[ Edit: 'Safe climbing' - one of the few oxymorons to enable an entire industry. I remain unimpressed and unmoved as I consider it an 'access' issue - as in gridbolted outdoor clipjoints make the vertical world accessible to an extremely large population of folks who would otherwise not be there at all - the sheer numbers are the access problem. Selfish, misanthropic, and extreme I know, but I make no apologies whatsoever for preferring that climbing had never been drilled into submission to entertain bored, risk-averse suburbanites. Bottom line? 'Pedestrian' is just not something I thought would ever acquire a vertical context. ]
[ Double-Dog Edit: When does the via ferrata go up on the Nose? I'd like to be there for the inaugural... ]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 30, 2006 - 11:56pm PT
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Reserving this post to reply to healyj when I don't have a mouth full of food.
Peace
karl
Edit:
Geez HealyJ, That's a stretch I didn't think you'd make. I was mostly agreeing with Hedge that
1. It's a bit spurious to honor the FAs of guys climbing so far below their limit. I'm basically a 5.10 climbing and I've free soloed some 5.7-5.8 probably virgin terrain. I wouldn't expect others to do the same or leave the rock vacant for eternity because I was there.
2. That routes are already changing, that it's accepted at the level it's happening, and thats reality.
The controversial part that I think may be for the future as the community changes is this one from Hedge
"It ends at the point where you're neither hysterically pro or anti bolt. Sane Compromise. If the FA'er climbs 2 or 3 number grades harder than the death route they put up, and it's a proud, outstanding line that would otherwise be getting hundreds of ascents a year, then retrobolt it just enough so you're not going to die. "
Just so "you're not going to die" is a far cry from grid bolting. A lot more bold climbing would get done if it went from a suicide mission to a boldness, hope you don't break something mission.
Let's be clear and not join Wes in stirring things up for the sake of hyperbole
peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Karl,
The problem I have with it all is basically that humans suck at moderation. Think of chalk - does it get used in moderation, only as necessary? Check. Dogging? First started out something folks did to establish new difficulty ratings and routes that weren't yielding any other way at the time; next thing you know dogging is how you climb 5.5. Bolting only the 'botched' FA's? You know exactly how that would play out - five years out every twenty foot 'runout' in the country would become a 'Bosched' pitch. People only propose moderation - they execute with extreme excess. In reality the only places being protected from grid bolting are those under the tight control of public of private land managers.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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"but I make no apologies whatsoever for preferring that climbing had never been drilled into submission to entertain bored, risk-averse suburbanites."
Wow. I cant beleive the routes that friends and I put up with bolts were just to keep us suburban (Prescott, SLC, Tahoe) pussys entertained... We really thought we were doing something great. Sheesh, what a waste. I quit...
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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The main problem with re-equipping old established routes with additional bolts is that that particular route is then "dumbed down" for every future ascentionist of that route, for ever.
Currently, each climber who walks up to the base of an established climbing route that has less than ideal protection must ask himself if he is up to the task of leading the route in question. Once additional fixed gear has been added to a route, that decision has unilaterally been made for every subsequent climber by another person.
Would Wes like me (or anyone else) to be the one who makes that decision for him? I bet not.
Curt
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Where are you from healyje? Because this statement seems way off base: "In reality the only places being protected from grid bolting are those under the tight control of public or private land managers."
But maybe that describes where you live - I sure hope it doesn't.
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