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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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Nothing is unreal. If you can imagine it, it is real in some sense. Just because some people give higher weight to some kinds of reality than others does not make that a correct judgment. Any God I imagine is real, the imagination is a discovery process, not just a fabrication, and the entity eventually even take on a life if it's own without me even if I'm its sole creator. That does not necessarily mean it's a very strong God but the more I invest of my energy in it, the more energy and power it gains. Many of the Old gods are very strong. This is the same way God (meaning the God comprising all the information of the universe) creates the known universe, which is really just information-energy. It is created by the focusing of consciousness to create. We are all just part of God's dream. God created us to believe we have individual consciousness as a necessity in order to avoid some problems caused by recursive looping of semi-independent conscious substructures. We have real creative power and are part of the larger God-consciousness. God co-creates reality thru us. How do I know this is true? I have experienced it. If you think "belief" is necessary because you can't experience or communicate with God, then you haven't even got to first base yet.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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Wes, you're trapped within semantics and can't see the forest for the trees. It's the position of someone who habitually accepts definitions instead of one who has experience creating them.
Science and reason are far less real than God, who can change the rules any time he wants to. Science and reason and even "laws of the universe" are only well ingrained habits.
Antonyms imply polarity. A polarity is actually a unity anyway. Take a magnet with two poles. Say One pole is Republican and the other Democrat. One pole hates the other and cuts it off. What happens? It just brings it closer to it. If you cut a magnet in half, the two poles are now just closer together. The polar enemy is an intrinsic unity.
We should learn to respect, love, and enjoy the distance from those adopting stances polarized to our own. Only a fool wants to cut that down and bring it right into his own face. Only a fool believes his polar opposite isn't actually unified with himself...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 11, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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Poor Binks- it pains me to say you've now forced me to include you in the same penalty box as Klimmer and Rokjox.
(Wait, there's poetry in there some where...)
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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I'm perfectly capable of practicing science and reason, realizing full well they are a merely an approximate toolbox. It's why I've worked for many years as a senior engineer at a technology company. The best engineers are wizards. They understand how the wiring works and will create an entirely new lexicon or language if necessary. Creators. If you're one of my reports, I'll tell you the "rules and laws" which you will take as absolute. But meanwhile I know there is an awful lot of "space" around them. So much so that mostly what we are dealing with is thin air.
But don't let my appeal to my spurious "real world authority" move you. That's just "the man". Maybe I only achieved this position in order to fully hide my foolish nature.
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Corn nut ...
I told you already that you're stupid dumb sh'it leg humper.
Now you're trying to do it with Binks.
Why not STFU for a change and learn something instead of lumping people here always into your narrow mental speculative idea of what they are.
You really are an idiot .....
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 11, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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I'm violating one of my personal rules by posting on a thread where I only skimmed the posts, rather than reading them carefully. If I've re-plowed a row, please forgive me.
I think applying Pascal's wager to Biblical Christianity is making an insane bet. As Paul wrote, if the dead do not rise, then we, of all people, are most to be pitied. Jesus said that one who, having put his hand to the plow, looks back is not fit for the kingdom of heaven, and He told His followers they must take up their cross daily.
The cross was simultaneously an instrument of torture, humiliation, and death, as His listeners knew all too well. Jesus was saying that being His follower is neither costless nor easy, as skimming the posts on this thread demonstrates.
I nonetheless believe in Jesus in the same way I believe in gravity, because of personal experience. I came to my faith as an adult and, like Lynnie, know Jesus as both my friend and my savior and God. In the absence of a mind meld, I can't transfer my experience to any of you, but neither can I deny it, even if admitting my belief exposes me to ridicule as a simple fool. So be it. I know what I've experienced, and my God is real.
John
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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Amen.
Jesus said, "They will hate you because they first hate me." (Paraphased)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 11, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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Brawny- what, you don't think I could give as good as I get?
You don't think I could stoop to the "leg-humping" level, too. If I wanted? C'mon, raise the discourse. Show the class you show out in the field. What are you schizo, a duel personality, on the internet? or are you just jacking around with another "social experiment"?
Take up Pate's challenge. Post up something relating to belief that's insightful, thought-provoking, a sign of deeper understanding, something more than a two-sentence punchline.
Of absurdities, shadow governments and woowoo
angels and demons, conspiracies and biblical huey poo;
Into the penalty box, oughta be a lock box,
for Binks, Go-be, Brawny, Klimmer and Rokjox.
"Nothing is unreal. If you can imagine it, it is real in some sense. Just because some people give higher weight to some kinds of reality than others does not make that a correct judgment."
yeah, right, and the moon is made out of blue cheese. And this blue cheese will someday substitute for fossil fuels and power our cars and economies. Just believe and it is so.
And when the carrying capacity of the Earth collapses from 8 billion to 2 billion, do not fear this day for God Jehovah or God Marduk or God Ashtar (but not God Quetzalcoatl or the Flying Spighetti Monster) will save the difference in a super-sized chariot of fire on a whirlwind. And all will be fine. His Will be done.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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yeah, right, and the moon is made out of blue cheese. And this blue cheese will someday substitute for fossil fuels and power our cars and economies. Just believe and it is so.
The problem is you fail to understand context. Nothing is absolutely true in every context. Often, things only true in extremely narrow contexts have incredible power (like many applications of Science, or the impact of events in fictional movies). Everything is true in some context. You folks who want to deny the existence of God have narrowed down your context so far that you have made yourselves blind.
Even worse, you want to extend your minuscule and overextended context to include things that dwarf it, like God.
I say "even worse" with the greatest of respect. I'm OK with you believing whatever you want.
If you were truly able to believe that in some contexts the moon IS made of blue cheese then you would have made a true leap of consciousness that might actually enable a revolution in energy prodution, who knows? Instead, your brain is crippled because you insist on applying things of limited context outside of their domain.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 11, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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nonetheless believe in Jesus in the same way I believe in gravity, because of personal experience. I came to my faith as an adult and, like Lynnie, know Jesus as both my friend and my savior and God. In the absence of a mind meld, I can't transfer my experience to any of you, but neither can I deny it, even if admitting my belief exposes me to ridicule as a simple fool. So be it. I know what I've experienced, and my God is real.
But you could show us your experience with gravity.
That is why atheists think that non-atheists are nuts. It's because they (the believers) seem to consider a repeatable and demonstratable experience (such as gravity) as being of the same meaning and quality as hearing voices in their heads; something that cannot be confirmed, demonstrated, or even verified to not be schizophrenia.
You say you know jesus but then I'm stuck having to take your word for it. On the other hand, I say that I know gravity and when you ask, I show you who, what, how, when, and why I know gravity. I hide nothing and I tell you that you do not need to simply believe it because your I told you so.
And yet the believers still act like the non-believers are somehow idiots for not seeing "it" even though it is invisible, unhearable, unmeasurable, and looks like a psychosis to us.
even if admitting my belief exposes me to ridicule as a simple fool
Maybe all of mankind are fools, even the atheists. Unfortunately, my beliefs make me thing that I'll never find out the answer. If the believers turn out right, I'll apologize on my way past heaven to wherever your various religions say I'll go.
Dave
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 11, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Dave,
I recognize that I can't demonstrate what I've seen, heard, or sensed. I can only tell you about it. That's why I call it my faith, not my science or objective logic.
By saying I believe in Christ in the same way I believe in gravity, I don't mean that I can demonstrate them comparably. Rather, I meant that both guide my actions in the same way. I rope up because I know what gravity does. I pray, study, worship and share because I know who God is and what He does.
Christian faith is not science. If it were, we'd go about spreading the news differently. All I can do is share my experience. I cannot make you believe, nor can I make you disbelieve. That's your choice and the work of the Spirit. I have, however, been commanded to tell the story, and I try to follow His commands with the same care I take when I climb.
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 11, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Dave wrote-
Unfortunately, my beliefs make me thing that I'll never find out the answer.
You could embrace the mystery, lean into it, take it on. (But perhaps you already do.) I do. That, too, is a life strategy that I think is gaining favor and coming more into being. In this evolving post-religious age.
Of this I trust, I have faith: There's no Intelligence (e.g., Diacrates) behind the Cosmos whose criteria of anything, e.g., morality, good v. evil, entry or not into a lifeafter, reward or punishment, turns on our believing in him or not. How childish is that? That's absurd. It's got human ideology written all over it. Made up a long time ago for ideological reasons and institutionalized down through the centuries.
What's most bewildering is how few- per cent wise in the population-- take the time to even think that through. And then again, how many others know full well what's up but play along anyway.
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bestill
Trad climber
s. ca.
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May 11, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
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if the buddha figure in the post from juan de fuca held a mirror in front of it,it would realize it was a nazi.
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go-B
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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God's blessing is the only vote that matters! It's an open book test, Jesus is the answer!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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Still believe in Santa and the easter bunny, Gobee?
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 11, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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John..well put!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 13, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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Norton....That's the xmas bunny...rj
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 13, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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"The problem is you fail to understand context. Nothing is absolutely true in every context. Often, things only true in extremely narrow contexts have incredible power (like many applications of Science, or the impact of events in fictional movies). Everything is true in some context. You folks who want to deny the existence of God have narrowed down your context so far that you have made yourselves blind."
The problem here is that when people narrow their context, they don't realize it, or they'll consider all that might be out side that context as illusionary. This is what fundamentalist materialists believe - that to be real, we must refer to some thing with measurable matter, even though QM tells us there is no such thing as matter in an absolute sense.
People believing absolutely in matter are engaged in the same thinking process as those believing absolutely in biblical scripture.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 13, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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This is huey.
re: Gods and "higher powers of fate" and theologies
We're not talking here about God in some abstract sense. We're talking about God Jehovah. Till you and the bulk of the multitudes get around to distinguishing the many and various God concepts, H. sapiens won't get any traction in this area.
But thank goodness a subculture (or two) is getting around to it. And making progress.
God Jehovah (the God underlying all three Abrahamic religions) was an ancient Mesopotamian God, akin to Marduk and Ashtar and just as fictional as the personal Gods of other cultures just 1,000 miles away in ancient Greece and Ancient Egypt.
Not a few on this site know well the concepts of "perspective" and "context" and the skill and power of applying them.
Here's a 21st century concept: dangling deities. In today's "post-religious" schools of thought, it's a faux pas to "dangle deities" just as in high school English class it is a faux pas to "dangle participles" or in high school math courses to "dangle numbers" without units.
"This is what fundamentalist materialists believe - that to be real, we must refer to some thing with measurable matter, even though QM tells us there is no such thing as matter in an absolute sense."
This is incorrect. EDIT: On several levels, too.
re: mechanistic nature of living things and mind-brain relationship
"Materialists" in regard to biology and living things believe (that is, mentally hold) that flesh and blood drives flesh and blood. What's more they believe molecular biology and biochemistry drive flesh and blood. From a different perspective, they believe there is no ghost in the body machine (as centuries of religious leaders believed and taught their congregations). From a different perspective, "materialists" believe mind (mental function incl consciousness) is what the brain does.
Here it is from a different perspective still: spiritual discarnationists believe "life works through matter but is independent of it." Wbraun comes to mind here. This belief is in direct opposition to what the materialist believes.
There is no such thing as "fundamentalist materialist." That is bogus language, a play on words. At least so it would be from many emerging perspectives, models and contexts. Mine, too.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 13, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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John...do you , personally , believe in a supreme being. rj
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