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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 16, 2010 - 02:02am PT
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We're a pretty arrogant bunch of spirits in meat suits thinking our few hundred years of serious science has given us all the answers. Here's a gem off the NASA site at
http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/
"What Is Dark Energy?
More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe..."
So science knows almost nothing about the majority of the universe but enough to ignore spirituality and the subtle realms it points to.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 16, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
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"So science knows almost nothing about the majority of the universe..."
Then again, it knows magnitudes more about it than our bronze-age ancestors - who sourced the Abrahamic religions - ever did.
.....
Earlier TG encouraged us to check out a couple of links to Gary Gutting. I had never heard of him previously. But here's a conclusion of his:
"The God Delusion [of Richard Dawkins] does not meet the standards of rationality that a topic as important as religion requires."
What a mind blowing, facepalm-inducing statement. Yes, we're definitely saying good bye to one age and walking through to another. Gary Gutting is an Edsel, he's an expert from another era.
.....
Do the religious people have anything good to say about our mechanistic nature, our machinery of life, our 100 trillion cells working in synergy - that the sciences over the last couple centuries have figured out, revealed - do they?
Do the Abrahamic religions or their leadership in the 21st century make any effort at all to deal with nature as is? to adapt? to re-orient their attitudes? to come to grips with the constraints, the limits, of the natural world? Making such an effort would be a sign of increasing (growing) spiritual maturation.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 16, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
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Earlier I posted a line from Sam Harris:
"Tolerance of religious stupidity has a way of making liars and cowards of people who should have nothing to fear from the fruits of honest reasoning."
His made me think of a corallary:
Partisan defense of ol' time religions and theologies has a way of turning people against science. It's really unfortunate.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 16, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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"...It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe..."
Well, put it this way- if my protection pulled, I'd rather fall a couple hundred feet and deck against that immeasurable majority than than the measurable minority - the 5% - you seem to enjoy trivializing.
.....
Earlier, somebody expressed the idea that the two (or more) sides of this thread can't be reconciled. I think this is the view of many. What this thread and all its content do is reinforce the growing realization that there needs to be alternative genres of belief - one religious, the other or others TBDious - to reflect the wide cross-section of personalities of believers - each genre free to express their own ideas and practices for getting on in the "practice" of living. That would be a mark of growth, headway, I think.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 16, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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Tony-
I'm working against a deadline for the next day or so and don't have time for a long reply but I definitely will. While I appreciate your role as the village contrarian, you don't really have your facts straight and you will never get a straight story about Okinawa from a mainland Japanese wife reading Japanese papers.
Next thing you will be telling me that the Japanese did not commit atrocities in Okinawa and the rest of Asia, that the rape of Nanjing never happened etc. because that's what the Japanese textbooks say. Try reading some Okinawan history from their point of view or ours instead.
You want to talk about the atrocities of rape and murder, read how a quarter of the civilian population here was killed in a month's time because the mainland Japanese decided to sacrifice the occupied Okinawans to save the mainland. Read about the enslaved Korean comfort girls who died in the war here or the poor Okinawans who committed suicide because of Japanese propaganda, or the Okinawans who were killed for speaking their own dialect during the war, or the Okinawans who were hiding in their family tombs who were shot so the Japanese soldiers could hide there instead.
After you've made your way through that, then ask yourself how bad the Americans really are in comparison.And while you're at it, ask your wife if she knows about the schools refusing to play the national anthem or fly the Japanese national flag until just a few years ago. Ask about the Japanese flag being burned at the national athletic meet attended by the crown prince when Emperor Hirohito was dying. Ask her if she knows about the Okinawan independence movement.
This is for starters. I could write a lot more.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Tony Bird,
You sure like to shine the light just where you want to look.
that's american empire. hope you're happy being a part of it.
I assume that you are a US citizen and are part of the "american empire" as well. Forgive me if this is incorrect, but if not, then I could say say something similar to you. It is meaningless to do so.
Your derision characterizes the military wrongly. There are many fine people in it. Like any other sub-group in our culture there are those who do bad things.
I'd rather hear about what you are doing to end the american empire that you dislike than to deride a person who devotes time and energy to positive actions as you lump them with the type of person who rapes and murders.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
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Obviously you do Pate. Addiction is hard.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
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Because you monitor ST like a cop on a beat. You are always here. You've got this place wired like a V3 in your backyard. You need to get out a bit lad.
My conclusion: You care, the bully in you just can't take being trolled.
Edit: for precision.
SF
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 16, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
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sorry, scarf, not my empire. the american system i subscribe to abides by its own laws and plays fair at home and abroad. sound familiar? i doubt it.
let's see if i have this right, jan--the japanese raped nanking so it's okay for u.s. marines to rape okinawans. of course, the japanese government won't prosecute any marines since they learned who the boss is a long time ago. so you're championing the okinawa cause against the japanese, but not against your employer, the u.s. military, right? you're smarter than i gave you credit for.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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Tony,
You're lumping individual marines with the US Marines.
edit to add:
So what are you doing to make america become your ideal? Posting on the internet?
SF
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 16, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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if there were honor in the marines, rapes would not be covered up, restitution would be made, and perpetrators would be discharged, prosecuted and made examples of.
hey, i'm cool. i know that joining the military has always been a trade-off. your life may go on the line in the battlefield, but certain other rules are relaxed. it's why the girls were named after general hooker. that has been a big industry in okinawa, but it seems some want the extra thrill of picking on local housewives and schoolchildren, all the way down to an 8-year-old girl.
i wouldn't be on jan's case if she just took the federal paycheck and went climbing, but she pretends to champion the fragile okinawan culture and eclecticize all manner of religious mysticism, east and west. perhaps she's a warrior nun in the new earth army.
it's the same situation, really, with the roman catholic church. a priest may have to give up sex with women, but he can have his way with altar boys provided for his comfort, and if things get hot, there's shelter in the vatican. empires feed on power sex and they never follow their own rules.
scarfy, i do what i can, and you don't want to know what i do. since you're happy with the empire, i won't even ask what you do, because i know it's--nothing.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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Tony,
Actually, I am active. But I can't go into it.
I think that you misdirect your anger. Most soldiers that I know (many) are some of the most resolute with the concept of protecting the natural rights of people everywhere.
I am sure you and I would find a lot of common ground with respect to those who pull the strings. I am all for transparency of organizational decisions be they government or corporate. I am not an elitist. There is an unintended consequence to the fact that we have put a generation into a decade plus of war. I'm sure glad I didn't spend my 20's in Iraq. On the plus side, They don't harbor a lot of illusion.
The state of our imperialism is becoming very obvious and will continue to do so as the insulated populace begins to deal with returning soldiers. These soldiers have multiple deployments and trauma under their belts. They are not bad people. Many who made the choice to join have had quite an education. I hope more of them enter politics. I much prefer a John Kerry who did tours in Vietnam than a Bush or Cheney who are poseurs (thanks Pate).
Sorry, I know this is off topic to this thread, but this thread has been beat to death.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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Pate,
Thank you. You always sink to a lower level. Predictability is comforting even as it is boring.
SF
Edit to add: I think you are having a crisis of will. You may find that getting out on a route that is over your head very therapeutic.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 16, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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Tony-
You really need to start relying on something other than left wing Japanese papers for your information. The all volunteer U.S. military does not cover up rapes and in fact, court martials many service people after the Japanese have declined to press charges. If there's any hint of impropriety they are thrown out of the military. The incidence of rape and murder over here are far lower than in the States (though even one is too high), and the percentage of rapes by our people are lower than by the locals.
Regarding the two cases you are referring to, the men who raped the 12 year old got only 6 years in prison because three Okinawans had raped a 12 year old only six months before and gotten 3 years for it. In good conscience even the justly irate Okinawans could not sentence foreigners to more than double what their own people got. All Americans on Okinawa were asked by the military to contribute to that girl's restitution fund by the way, and everyone from the local commander to President Clinton made an apology.
Then there was the more recent case of the high school girl who claimed rape which turned out to be a kiss and groping. Charges were dropped when it was discovered that the girl regularly sold herself to both Japanese tourists and Americans, for spending money, and had taken money from that guy before. He was a civilian by the way and lost his job and was deported as soon as he got out of jail. Of course in Japan, the police can hold you for 11 days with no charges and if you're Japanese or Okinawan beat you until they get a confession.
Meanwhile, ask yourself why we are still here? Do you really want the Japanese to rearm? Do you want an arms race in Asia if they do? Do you really think the Chinese and North Koreans wish them well? Yes, we have an empire. Like all empires it sometimes does good and sometimes does bad. On the good side it has prevented WWIII for 60 years now.
Our empire has also shamelessly backed many dictators, especially if they had oil. Noriega and Hussein went from allies to deposed when they defied us, but they were hardly innocents that anyone defended. It is much more dismaying that our government backed by the majority of our people, chose to believe lies in order to attack someone, anyone, for 9/11. Just like Vietnam, that will come back to haunt us for at least a whole generation. However, the world is full of shades of gray. It's easy to criticize, much harder to find a solution.
I happen to think that teaching America's lower classes and enterprising immigrants - giving the guys from the ghettos, barrios, and tar paper shacks of our country - an education and shot at middle class life, to be an honorable calling. I could have made more money and certainly had a lot more comfortable life in the U.S. teaching the middle and upper classes at some elite school.
Meanwhile, I am aghast that that our military members are getting killed and maimed to keep the price of oil low so that the average American can keep their heat and air con 10 degrees above or below room temperature and drive everywhere on cheap gas. No rationing, no war bonds, no tax raises, just death and destruction in our name while America parties on. However, unless you are off grid and bicycle everywhere and withold that part of your income tax that goes to the military, forcing the IRS to confiscate it and fine you every year, you're guilty too.
As for my paycheck, it comes from the University of Maryland. My W-4 is issued by the state of Maryland. Of course if you trace it back far enough, it actually comes from the U.S. taxpayers, including you, as does a large part of any professor's, whose institution collects government money in any form whether research grants or student loans and grants. Perhaps that is also your complaint?
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jstan
climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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One of the toughest choices to be made on ST is the decision as to which posts merit a response and which do not. Seems to me posts possessing a high temperature and a low rationality are best ignored. Other people who are also typically running at elevated temperature will be sympathetic both to the lack of rationality and the temperaure. Any response is wasted on them. Those not in this category will dismiss such posts out of hand.
But it's always a tough call.
As to Japan's rearming I am not sure it is going to be avoidable. If I were Japanese would I trust the US to make the very hard decisions potentially needed to support the Japanese people? In recent years I myself have lost the confidence I once had in this regard.
Japan, clearly can go nuclear in a very short time. An inabiliy to test is the crux. But an aggressor will be just as much in doubt over the lack of testing as will the defense.
The question is will the Japanese revert to the psychology that existed in the 30's when under pressure? In Japan I wonder if that is not primarily a cultural thing. From what I see of young Germans I don't get the feeling they would do so except under extreme dislacement.
Frankly, at this time, I think the US is closer to that psychology than almost any other major country.
The Japanese are educated and they are not dumb. If I see something like this, so might they. Indeed if my worries are on target I would expect Japan to begin serious efforts to develop new alliances.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 16, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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jstan-
The question is who else could possibly be their ally? None of the countries they occupied, which excludes China, the Koreas, Taiwan, and all of S.E. Asia with the exception of Thailand, not exactly a military power. They are also deeply at odds with Russia over their occupation of the Russian speaking Kuril islands.
A recent Foreign Affairs article predicted that 50 years from now our "Asian" bases will be in the Marianas and Hawaii and our only allies in Asia will be the two strong democracies - Japan and India. Perhaps the two of them would form an alliance without us?
In any case, the rest of Asia is rushing to realign with China which is being very astute with its strategic planning. The Chinese interior minister mentioned a few years ago by the way, that the Ryukyu islands of which Okinawa is a part "were taken from China by force." In fact, Okinawa was an independent kingdom and a tributary state of China until conquered and bled dry by mainland Japan starting in the late 1600's.
The same interior minister added, "China is willing to lose 50 cities to nuclear attack to regain Taiwan. The U.S. is not even ready to sacrifice Los Angeles". Needless to say, that was heard loud and clear in Tokyo. And let us hope he was only posturing.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 16, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
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Tung asks two questions:
So here is my first question: Has the history of the theory of evolution -- from the beginning tightly interwoven with the theory of social evolution -- been any less violent than the history of religions? It seems to me that it has not been any less violent. This does not make the point that religions have been violent go away, but it does mean that patterned violence is not found uniquely in religion
---------------------------
The answer to this is NO. Evolution is packed full of violence, kill or be killed for many species.
There is no hypocrisy in evolution, it is what it is.
The perverse hypocrisy is of religions that profess to be all about emulating a supposedly loving god, and then torturing, raping, and murdering
other human beings because they don't worship the same god you do.
(think the Crusades, as just one example)
As for the second question: Tung, please understand that the language
that some here use is a result of their exasperation with fundamentalist
Christians who continue to insist that humans did NOT "evolve" from
earlier primates, but instead were "created" a couple thousand years ago.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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Jan:
What you mention is the primary barrier, possibly a cultural barrier that Japan it seems to me, has to vault in forming its new alliances. S. Korea is a large economy based upon high technology but there is so much emotional residue left over from WWII. Suppose Japan and S. Korea have together developed ties to rapidly developing Malaysian countries along with Australia. And they have reasonable working relations with China. (Working together is a given in light of globalization. You have to be able to work with those who have agendae different from your own.) The cost of producing goods in Malaysia is becoming lower than that in China. And that trend is accelerating. But Malaysia needs scale! Malaysia, and for that matter India have to try and emulate the miracle threaded by China. But for them the US will no longer be able to act as a rich uncle. We are tapped out.
What is India going to think? India will love it. If you have two centers to play off against each other - you have it made. It is like the person who reports to two supervisors. You can do what ever you darn well please.
To achieve this it seems, in my ignorance, individual Japanese may have to swallow some bitter pills. You are closer to this than am I. I don't see any way around it. This is Japan's future. And Japan has the chance to hold the aces.
Russia will be leveraging its natural resources and has to remain as concerned now with what it sees developing to its East as it was 30 years ago. Were the US to develop a rational and consistent world view, Russia is perhaps our natural ally. You guess is as good as mine as to whether the US is capable of developing same.
For so long as the US is absent a functional system for public education, I think all bets are off.
The future will be a runaway train.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:26am PT
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Nice Post Jan.
Things are not as simple as people think and info from somebody who is there and knows what she is talking about is helpful
peace
karl
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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norton,
You offered up a prime example of argument from assumption.
You're emphatic that it is "survival of the fittest". Head to head competition. But evolution could also follow from a core concept of "elimination of the weakest". Quite a different thing than what you describe. One that takes a more (eco)system view.
SF
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