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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 15, 2010 - 06:49am PT
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But consciousness makes no sense without no-thingness from which it arises and to which it returns.
It makes perfect sense that consciousness comes and goes with us, percolating in and out of existence from a roiling vacuum no differently than anything else in our universe.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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you've been on your island too long, jan, believing what you're paid to teach. i know that you must have a front row seat to the regular rapings of young local women by u.s. marines and the covering up that goes on by the u.s. military and its japanese government lackeys. put a flower or two in your chapel for the deflowered.
that's american empire. hope you're happy being a part of it. personally, i'm more in sympathy with the young fella who returned home after a year in iraq, mad as hell because he hadn't been given the chance to kill anyone. spirituality begins with being honest with yourself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
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re: hermeneutics
OMG. Just listened to We Are the Champions. By Queen. It is as if this was written for the atheists of history. Now THAT is a beautiful interpretation.
I've paid my dues
Time after time
I've done my sentence
But committed no crime
And bad mistakes
I've made a few
I've had my share of sand kicked in my face
But I've come through
The atheists of history (e.g., Thomas Paine, Thomas Huxley) were heroic, they were champions. Someday we'll have an institution or two that recognizes this fact.
But it's been no bed of roses
No pleasure cruise -
I consider it a challenge before the whole human race
And I aint gonna lose -
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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I don't know, Pate. Not long ago, Skip posted some crazy sh#t on an electrical thread that proved he knew nothing more than crazy sh#t regarding electrical stuff to those in the know but posted up anyways. So it's going to be awhile before he earns back MY faith (i.e., my results-based faith). At this point, he's got a big scarlet question mark drawn on his forehead in my coloring book.
.....
That is beautiful, Wade. Beautiful structure. Beautiful material. Looks comforting, warm to the touch, too.
.....
Healy wrote-
"It makes perfect sense that consciousness comes and goes with us, percolating in and out of existence from a roiling vacuum no differently than anything else in our universe."
-My belief exactly.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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i have come to the guarded conclusion that pate and fructo are the same individual in that advanced state of schizophrenia where certain personality traits--in this case, the coining of inutile words on the part of fructo and an obsession with nuns on the part of pate--remain distinct.
the only alternate explanation for their unusually concordant behavior was inadvertently suggested by misterE on the paranormal thread. it could actually be that one of them, and i can't determine which, is a human being and the other is a metaphysical entity being channeled by the human.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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"inutile" <<L in-, not + utilis, useful>>
bwahahahah!
What's with the fixation anyhow? Did you want to be the only applied linguist at the the Taco? Okay.
From my perspective, tho, you are - or at least you turned into - the proverbial obstructionist to the creative process. -Criticizing something before you've even tried it out.
EDIT 1:19p Didn't need to look it up - any more than I need to look up "cordelette" - there you go - another false premise on your part. You're chockful of them.
ah, that's it, I shot down your paranormalist theories (pseudosophies, really) and so you're striking back the only way you know how.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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neener neener--made ya look it up. i thought entities never had to do that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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re: schizo
Most of us are schizophrenic <<Gr split + minded>> when it comes to Santa Claus. Believing in him on one level and NOT believing him on another level. Perfectly sensible. I'm glad America if not the entire world is enriched by the custom, story, celebration of Santa Claus. -But this does point the way moreover to an understanding of God and the Abrahamic narrative as well.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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you know, fruct, i was leaning towards pate being human and you being the entity, but i fear it's the other way around and i'll never get that six-pack of beer. pate's nun habit probably arose from nondimensional exposure to the repressive aura broadcast from convent life, something which has resonated in his bodyless existence for centuries. on the other hand, you seem to have much more ego invested in your online image, a sure sign of blood pulsing feverishly through real arteries.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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For a view of how death and afterlife may work, and a modern day example of a human physically resurrecting from the dead, I'd recommend those participating in this thread read the following chapter in Paramahansa Yogananda's book "Autobiography of a Yogi" I it, Yogananda's dead Guru physically materializes from thin air and describes what happens to souls after death and how they evolve though the heavenly realms.
Note that Both Yogananda and Yukeshwar were lovers of Christ and both wrote books reconciling Christianity with eastern traditions
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.html
A bit of an example from the chapter
"..."There are many astral planets, teeming with astral beings," Master began. "The inhabitants use astral planes, or masses of light, to travel from one planet to another, faster than electricity and radioactive energies.
"The astral universe, made of various subtle vibrations of light and color, is hundreds of times larger than the material cosmos. The entire physical creation hangs like a little solid basket under the huge luminous balloon of the astral sphere. Just as many physical suns and stars roam in space, so there are also countless astral solar and stellar systems. Their planets have astral suns and moons, more beautiful than the physical ones. The astral luminaries resemble the aurora borealis-the sunny astral aurora being more dazzling than the mild-rayed moon-aurora. The astral day and night are longer than those of earth.
"The astral world is infinitely beautiful, clean, pure, and orderly. There are no dead planets or barren lands. The terrestrial blemishes-weeds, bacteria, insects, snakes-are absent. Unlike the variable climates and seasons of the earth, the astral planets maintain the even temperature of an eternal spring, with occasional luminous white snow and rain of many-colored lights. Astral planets abound in opal lakes and bright seas and rainbow rivers.
"The ordinary astral universe-not the subtler astral heaven of Hiranyaloka-is peopled with millions of astral beings who have come, more or less recently, from the earth, and also with myriads of fairies, mermaids, fishes, animals, goblins, gnomes, demigods and spirits, all residing on different astral planets in accordance with karmic qualifications. Various spheric mansions or vibratory regions are provided for good and evil spirits. Good ones can travel freely, but the evil spirits are confined to limited zones. In the same way that human beings live on the surface of the earth, worms inside the soil, fish in water, and birds in air, so astral beings of different grades are assigned to suitable vibratory quarters.
"Among the fallen dark angels expelled from other worlds, friction and war take place with lifetronic bombs or mental mantric3 vibratory rays. These beings dwell in the gloom-drenched regions of the lower astral cosmos, working out their evil karma.
"In the vast realms above the dark astral prison, all is shining and beautiful. The astral cosmos is more naturally attuned than the earth to the divine will and plan of perfection. Every astral object is manifested primarily by the will of God, and partially by the will-call of astral beings. They possess the power of modifying or enhancing the grace and form of anything already created by the Lord. He has given His astral children the freedom and privilege of changing or improving at will the astral cosmos. On earth a solid must be transformed into liquid or other form through natural or chemical processes, but astral solids are changed into astral liquids, gases, or energy solely and instantly by the will of the inhabitants.
"The earth is dark with warfare and murder in the sea, land, and air," my guru continued, "but the astral realms know a happy harmony and equality. Astral beings dematerialize or materialize their forms at will. Flowers or fish or animals can metamorphose themselves, for a time, into astral men. All astral beings are free to assume any form, and can easily commune together. No fixed, definite, natural law hems them round-any astral tree, for example, can be successfully asked to produce an astral mango or other desired fruit, flower, or indeed any other object. Certain karmic restrictions are present, but there are no distinctions in the astral world about desirability of various forms. Everything is vibrant with God's creative light.
"No one is born of woman; offspring are materialized by astral beings through the help of their cosmic will into specially patterned, astrally condensed forms. The recently physically disembodied being arrives in an astral family through invitation, drawn by similar mental and spiritual tendencies.
"The astral body is not subject to cold or heat or other natural conditions. The anatomy includes an astral brain, or the thousand-petaled lotus of light, and six awakened centers in the sushumna, or astral cerebro-spinal axis. The heart draws cosmic energy as well as light from the astral brain, and pumps it to the astral nerves and body cells, or lifetrons. Astral beings can affect their bodies by lifetronic force or by mantric vibrations.
"The astral body is an exact counterpart of the last physical form. Astral beings retain the same appearance which they possessed in youth in their previous earthly sojourn; occasionally an astral being chooses, like myself, to retain his old age appearance." Master, emanating the very essence of youth, chuckled merrily.
"Unlike the spacial, three-dimensional physical world cognized only by the five senses, the astral spheres are visible to the all-inclusive sixth sense-intuition," Sri Yukteswar went on. "By sheer intuitional feeling, all astral beings see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. They possess three eyes, two of which are partly closed. The third and chief astral eye, vertically placed on the forehead, is open. Astral beings have all the outer sensory organs-ears, eyes, nose, tongue, and skin-but they employ the intuitional sense to experience sensations through any part of the body; they can see through the ear, or nose, or skin. They are able to hear through the eyes or tongue, and can taste through the ears or skin, and so forth.4
"Man's physical body is exposed to countless dangers, and is easily hurt or maimed; the ethereal astral body may occasionally be cut or bruised but is healed at once by mere willing."
"Gurudeva, are all astral persons beautiful?"
"Beauty in the astral world is known to be a spiritual quality, and not an outward conformation," Sri Yukteswar replied. "Astral beings therefore attach little importance to facial features. They have the privilege, however, of costuming themselves at will with new, colorful, astrally materialized bodies. Just as worldly men don new array for gala events, so astral beings find occasions to bedeck themselves in specially designed forms.
"Joyous astral festivities on the higher astral planets like Hiranyaloka take place when a being is liberated from the astral world through spiritual advancement, and is therefore ready to enter the heaven of the causal world. On such occasions the Invisible Heavenly Father, and the saints who are merged in Him, materialize Themselves into bodies of Their own choice and join the astral celebration. In order to please His beloved devotee, the Lord takes any desired form. If the devotee worshiped through devotion, he sees God as the Divine Mother. To Jesus, the Father-aspect of the Infinite One was appealing beyond other conceptions. The individuality with which the Creator has endowed each of His creatures makes every conceivable and inconceivable demand on the Lord's versatility!" My guru and I laughed happily together.
"Friends of other lives easily recognize one another in the astral world," Sri Yukteswar went on in his beautiful, flutelike voice. "Rejoicing at the immortality of friendship, they realize the indestructibility of love, often doubted at the time of the sad, delusive partings of earthly life.
"The intuition of astral beings pierces through the veil and observes human activities on earth, but man cannot view the astral world unless his sixth sense is somewhat developed. Thousands of earth-dwellers have momentarily glimpsed an astral being or an astral world...."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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isn't it weird to you, Karl, that such descriptions are so human-, earth-centric?
I would expect that if such places really existed they'd be like nothing we have experience of... yet all these descriptions are made in terms of what we would consider "ideal," as if just an extension of our current lives.
Perhaps that description is just a metaphor...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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not only is it human and earth-centric, karl, but it's also culture-specific. paramahansa is in ecstasy over his vision of lord krishna, the way a catholic saint would get over a vision of jesus and his sacred heart or mary bluegown. not to disparage these experiences--i think paramahansa led an interesting life--but they have parallels and, therefore, i believe, nothing absolute about them. rather, just more data for a scientist with an open mind to start sorting it.
another notation: the politically weaker east loves to imagine collegiality with jesus (cf. baha'ullah), the key myth of western imperialism, but you'll notice it never works in the other direction. you don't have gurus coming over here and getting their holy butts into the canon of saints.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 15, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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Ed wrote
"isn't it weird to you, Karl, that such descriptions are so human-, earth-centric?
I would expect that if such places really existed they'd be like nothing we have experience of... yet all these descriptions are made in terms of what we would consider "ideal," as if just an extension of our current lives."
and Tony wrote
"not only is it human and earth-centric, karl, but it's also culture-specific. paramahansa is in ecstasy over his vision of lord krishna, the way a catholic saint would get over a vision of jesus and his sacred heart or mary bluegown. not to disparage these experiences"
Which just goes to show you guys didn't read the chapter. Yukteshwar goes on to describe higher levels of evolved life that are without body or form. Yogananda is clear that God appears in the form that the devotee expects and desires because the ultimate being is ultimately formless.
from the link
"..."Joyous astral festivities on the higher astral planets like Hiranyaloka take place when a being is liberated from the astral world through spiritual advancement, and is therefore ready to enter the heaven of the causal world. On such occasions the Invisible Heavenly Father, and the saints who are merged in Him, materialize Themselves into bodies of Their own choice and join the astral celebration. In order to please His beloved devotee, the Lord takes any desired form. If the devotee worshiped through devotion, he sees God as the Divine Mother. To Jesus, the Father-aspect of the Infinite One was appealing beyond other conceptions. The individuality with which the Creator has endowed each of His creatures makes every conceivable and inconceivable demand on the Lord's versatility!" My guru and I laughed happily together..."
peace
Karl
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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WTF???
LOL111!!!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 15, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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Fructose is damn good at it too.
I am but a lamb.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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it's too sad to be gleeful about, pate, and too outrageous not to mention. i know about this because my wife is from japan and she happens to read the leading newspapers daily as part of her job. such incidents have gone on for years and came to a head a few years back when the okinawa locals were in the streets protesting. murder often goes along with such rapes. if you care about america you open your eyes to such things. ugly americans hate to look in the mirror.
i've come to admire jan's adventurousness and erudition, but she closes her mind to certain things. her last post shows a naïveté about america that belies a long absence and a tendency to look the other way, especially on payday.
you don't have to join the military unless you want to. the government learned some hard lessons during the vietnam era about pushing the mainstream into half-assed wars and contrived conflicts. most people in the military these days are kids without college opportunity and--open your eyes, you stupid rednecks--illegal aliens. the first body bag to come back to los angeles in the second iraq conflict was occupied by a guatemala native who had been an illegal two years before. when my wife became a citizen, half a dozen of the inductees were wearing military uniforms with rank all the way up to sergeant. the marine recruiters who provide jan her students are known to go down to tijuana high school and tell the assembly, "if you've got a green card, we've got an offer for you".
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 15, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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But consciousness makes no sense without no-thingness from which it arises and to which it returns.
It makes perfect sense that consciousness comes and goes with us, percolating in and out of existence from a roiling vacuum no differently than anything else in our universe.
---
IMO, that's getting close, but still no cigar.
The roiling vacuum is a great metaphor.
The limitation is the implication that consciousness is something our evolved brain does, as opposed to what the whole shebang is. Ergo, you're still looking for a cause in the "stuff," a material producer, whereas it's just the infinite interplay of nothingness and form, which are two side of the same coin, phasing in and out of time and through this phasing, producing time.
JL
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