Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)

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scarface

Trad climber

Aug 14, 2010 - 06:39pm PT

The onus of proof is on those who claim that god exists.

god = consciousness

we are conscious, therefore the onus of proof are on those who deny consciousness.

SF

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Full Silos of Iowa

Aug 14, 2010 - 06:42pm PT

Armed with an education, e.g., science education and general life education, it is quite "reasonable" to conclude, to decide - as informed decision makers of the modern age- that all ancient deities - all ancient Mediterranean / Mesopotamian Gods - all of them - at best were personifications of those great powers our ancient forebears felt were controlling their lives.

We're decision makers. We are a decision-making species. Decision-making is a power. Don't pass on it. Don't fall for the slippery sophisticated theologian's argument (of past times, all gussied up through centuries of use) that modern man (and woman) has to remain open-minded (and not draw any conclusions) about Artemis being the Daughter of Zeus or Ptolemy being the Son of Amon-Re or, in the case of Christians, Jesus being the Son of Jehovah. It's an old trap, don't fall for it. That's the updated thinking of today's age. And it will be the updated thinking of tomorrow's young people.

.....

Amon-Re needs to prove he exists. Quetzalcoatl needs to prove he exists. So does Jehovah. That will be the attitude of tomorrow's young people ("Attitude is everything.") when the new institutions of tomorrow are in place.

Fundamentalist Abrahamic devotees of the 21st century need to adapt, they need to work on their attitude - that should be the message of the Sunday sermons in churches across America - if they don't want to be left behind in the rush of the info age. No age of human history has escaped growing pains nor tragedies from failure to adapt. Our age is no exception.

Jehovah is not exempt from modern age reasoning.

scarface

Trad climber

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:06pm PT

modern age reasoning

Examples of which are numerous acts of genocide such as during both world wars. Mass killing is always "reasoned".

SF

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:07pm PT

god = consciousness

we are conscious, therefore the onus of proof are on those who deny consciousness

Well apparently there are some that are unconscious here...

I really shouldn't address such a weak attempt, but I'm procrastinating from studying so I'll bite.

Prove to me that god=consciousness. I don't see where that is obvious at all. You may think otherwise, but you offered it up; it's your responsibility to back it up with some sort of supporting data/argument.

From where I stand, consciousness is a result of evolution. Consciousness allowed a survival advantage and was therefore selected for. A complex brain circuit that allows the individual to understand the concept of self and not-self. A step beyond the herd mentality. Probably something very primitive in the paleocortex or even archecortex (parts of the brain).

Now really. Do some deep thinking and research before you offer up these sophmoric retorts please.

scarface

Trad climber

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:09pm PT

So you believe that only humans are conscious?

edit: You dualists sure have a lot of rules.

SF

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:15pm PT

Dude. You're out of your league or perhaps you're just very tired. Either way, try reading & rereading the post a few times, then look up the biological terms I used and see where they fit in the evolutionary chain. Hint: "something very primitive"

scarface

Trad climber

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:22pm PT

You're out of your league

BS and condescending.

So somewhere between very primitive and now consciousness appeared?

How do you define this event?

SF

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Full Silos of Iowa

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:25pm PT

Skep- Way to take up the charge.

Tell Scarface to just go read a book. I agree, he's out of his league.

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:26pm PT

Good question!

What is "consciousness"?

Well, let's start with the normally accepted classic definition.

From Wikipedia Consciousness

Consciousness is variously defined as subjective experience, or awareness, or wakefulness, or the executive control system of the mind.[1] It is an umbrella term that may refer to a variety of mental phenomena.[2] Although humans realize what everyday experiences are, consciousness refuses to be defined, philosophers note (e.g. John Searle in The Oxford Companion to Philosophy):[3]
"Anything that we are aware of at a given moment forms part of our consciousness, making conscious experience at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives."
—Schneider and Velmans, 2007[4]
Consciousness in medicine (e.g., anesthesiology) is assessed by observing a patient's alertness and responsiveness, and can be seen as a continuum of states ranging from alert, oriented to time and place, and communicative, through disorientation, then delirium, then loss of any meaningful communication, and ending with loss of movement in response to painful stimulation.[5]

Largo

Sport climber

The Big Wide Open Face

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:27pm PT

Moosie, you are not only on the other side of the fence, but the other side of reality. I believe.

I am an atheist. I believe there is no god. You believe there is.

You can not come into my field, no matter how nicely you ask. You are on the other side of the fence. I do not respect your beliefs for a minute, but I respect your right to have them.

You- I believe crazy side of fence.

Me- I believe realist.
--

There is no fence. There's just life, and we all have all the parts: crazy, unreal, enlightened, know-it-all, objective, subjective, "realist," romantic, junkie, addict, et al. But consciousness itself is no such "part."

JL

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:33pm PT

Scarface asks if others here believe that only humans have consciousness.

Well, I don't believe that.

For example, I do believe that many species of animals have consciousness.

So, it is not just humans that do.

But I think the point being made was that a spiritual being, a "god" made a
decision at some point in history to impart a "consciousness" in to humans.

And that this consciousness in humans is then necessarily "proof" that god exists.

And also then the supposition is that consciousness could NOT been bestowed
into humans in any other way.

Therefor the conclusion must be, that evolution could NOT have been
responsible for humans having consciousness.

This then, is therefore "proof" of that god does indeed, exist.

Do I have this right, Scarface?

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Full Silos of Iowa

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:34pm PT

re: consciousness

Consciousness, esp the sentience part, is a material function of brain circuitry and metabolism. We just haven't figured it out. But I'm confident if the world's societies don't collapse as a result of fossil fuel depletion, if somehow we're lucky and they progress and science progresses unabated, we'll have it figured out by century's end.

Once upon a time, people couldn't believe it - that a family member's voice could be heard, replicated, in a coil of wire over a magnet. But today this IS a commonplace understanding. -Even for those (e.g., 10 year old kids) who don't know how it is done. Keep the faith.

Norton

Social climber

the Wastelands

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:36pm PT

And Scarface asks about "modern age reasoning" and points out genocide
as an example of bad stuff that happens when humans practice reasoning.

It should be pointed out that "modern age reasoning" also is responsible
for the car that he drives, the surgeries to stay alive he may need,
and every single good and positive advancement in human life.

NONE of which would have come about WITHOUT modern age reasoning.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Full Silos of Iowa

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:43pm PT

Norton wrote-
"But I think the point being made was that a spiritual being, a "god" made a
decision at some point in history to impart a "consciousness" in to humans."

I remember how disappointed I was to read Jane Goodall saying that. In one of her latest books. Some just cannot accept brain as a basis for mind and move on. -Such is the power of childhood indoctrination and the Abrahamic narrative.

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:45pm PT

First, let me show you how to "google" a concept.
1. type http://www.google.com/ into your address bar (that's the thing at the top of the page that has the supertopo address in it right now).
2. when the google page pops up, type in the words "evolution" and "consciousness" and hit return on your keyboard. (you may also be interested in googling paleocortex and archecortex)
3. scroll down the list of articles until you come to this one This will take some time to load because it is 23 pages, but it's full of interesting information that will help you to understand how consciousness evolved. I know you will understand it because you are not "out of your league" when it comes to this subject.

Once you have read it & understood it, please reply to the earlier request to offer more proof that god=consciousness.

If you have any questions about the article, I suggest you ask one of your esteemed colleagues who are also in your league.

scarface

Trad climber

Aug 14, 2010 - 07:48pm PT

Largo has it exactly right.

This bears repeating. Dualists love fences and division. Categories and sub-categories. They forget that they are part of the action and that they really can't define (consciousness=god). All I know is that it is all just consciousness. The universe is conscious.

Argue all you want. Complain that my methods don't follow your prescription. I really don't care. Your argument and $2 plus will buy you some coffee at Starbucks.

SF