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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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After reading the most current exchange it almost seems we are striving to disagree.
I think no one has said they have a problem with a person who follows some particular guidance in their efforts to be a good citizen, live a satisfying life, and to support similar efforts by those around them.
Personally, a person's faith was a non-issue with me until certain branches calling themselves christian began doing things I had never associated with christ, began insisting that they be allowed to determine how others must live, and who had no problem with violating the law.
I think one has to object to such behavior if one hopes to be a good citizen.
This why I, from the start, have argued that the argument here should be between the people who in some sense want to be considered christian.
I don't see evidence that these discussions are taking place.
No one is objecting to organized efforts by tax exempt religious organizations to influence public policy.
We should be hearing these objections, daily.
Nada.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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Norton,
My reference was to High Fructose assuming all Christians are necessarily fundamentalists if they are to be authentic. You have never said that. There is a big difference between your posts and those of High Fructose and Pate.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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High Fructose,
Believe me (or not), I spend much more time battling the Christians who get the Gospel wrong than the atheists. The atheists are just much more prominent on this thread.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 14, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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His God isn't some vague abstract God or hybrid God (like Moosie's) about which we know nothing specific.
LOL, dude, you claim to know me, but you don't. I have written many times about what I believe about God and yet you still try to put me in a box of your creation so that you can control me. God isn't some moving target, yet as a Koan, God is not completely knowable to those who only want to define and confine God. We don't define God, God defines God. We only attempt to understand.
Skeptimistic wrote,
Ya know, if I was god, the omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, and I wanted people to believe in me and worship me,
This is a common mistake, to think that God wants people to believe in Him/Her, or even to worship Him/Her. God wants us to know who we are. Jesus said.."Ye are Gods". Create what you want, but realize that you will reap what you sow.
Pate wrote something honest here..
I don't get into arguments with delusional people.
I just like calling them as#@&%es.
I appreciate the honesty.
The thing that bothers me about this thread is the disrespect for peoples beliefs in God, simply because God isn't provable in a manner which that person would accept. Some interpret this thread to be a troll by Juan, and perhaps in some respect it is, as it has drawn out people's beliefs into the open. Some beliefs which are dogmatic and even scary. The thing is I believe that this thread was also a genuine quesiton on his part and instead it has devolved into a debate about religion. Religion isn't God. Religion is man's attempt to understand God, yet it is fraught with mistakes and even evil.
When a person has rules on how God is to behave, then they are saying that they are above God. No one is above God and God will not approach such a person as God allows that person to continue in their belief that they are above God and can contain and control God, as God has given us free will and dominion over this world, with one caveat, that we will reap what we sow.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Haha, you write as if Western civilization doesn't have a long and bloody history over one singular ages-old theology centered on Jehovah. And you post as if nobody else has any grounds for critiquing it or trying to move past it.
Still seems I described your God accurately, too, even by your most recent post. Isn't your "God" more abstract than the literal "God" of Abraham and Moses of the Bible who ordered a sabbath breaker to death by stoning?
So can we "asses" be friends now? or do you still want to be adversarial.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Theists have had a long tradition of imposing their Word of God and its Laws on culture. And minorites have had an equally long tradition of having to abide or else. Only in modern times has a light been shown on everything relating to religions and beliefs. And what everyone is experiencing now is growing pains - as a part of graduation, from one age to another - tho it doesn't seem like it day to day.
You guys should catch Agora, with Rachael Weisz, pretty good. There's a lot of that illustrated in this film.
A principal tool of early Abrahamic religionists (Jew to Christian to Muslim) keen on being obedient to God and doing His work was a hefty round stone.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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"When you all finally get the government out of our bedroom will it include having them stop telling us what light bulbs we have to use there?"
I am with you on this Skip. As soon as we let an actual free market set the cost of electrical power at its true value. Ever since Rural Electrification the government has played a role in the power network. As it has in the system of highways.
TG:
Then you are surely a lone voice speaking out in the wilderness. My props.
I can't speak as an atheist because it is not clear to me that the existence of a god has risen to the level of a question. So I call myself a non-believer. A much more general term.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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Now that we have that settled, Jstan brings up the very important issue of
the separation of church and state.
The guys who wrote our Constitution had a bellyful of the Court of King James
and the Church of England, which was VERY authoritative in its explicit rules
for how Christians in England were to live their lives and pay homage.
So back to present day. In my view, there is a serious breech of the separation
when leaders(pastors) of US various denominations openly tell their congregation which political party and candidates to vote for.
This is just in your face offensive. I have sat in Catholic masses and listened to the Bishop rail against the taking of lives through abortion,
and then cleverly so as not obvious suggest that the true Christian will vote for Republicans because they are "pro life", or against the free will of a mother to decide what is best to do with her own body.
When Churches attempt to influence politics then they cross the line.
They SHOULD immediately lose their tax exempt status.
BUT, everyone knows they cross the line all over America on this, and NO ONE
is openly screaming they should lose their tax status.
They "get away" with this because they are like the NRA, too powerful in American
life to mess with, they are sacred cows of the highest order.
It's WRONG. Churches should stick to telling people how to live their lives,
and what to do and not do in their bedrooms,
and NOT tell them which political party to vote for.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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Many - most - churches are 501 (c)(3) organizations, in effect charities. Registered charities in Canada, and I believe in the US also, are prohibited from any partisan political activity (supporting candidates and parties), and very limited in non-partisan advocacy. The system is administered by the Internal Revenue Service, a non-partisan agency, under the law. There's some room for interpretation, but not much. They regularly audit organizations to see that they're in compliance, both on a random basis, and based on complaints received.
Bush et al made a big fuss about auditing and even prosecuting charities that were supposedly sending money raised in the US to terrorist organizations, although it seems to have been a less significant thing than was claimed. (Probably most fundraising/money laundering in the US to support overseas terrorism, whether the IRA, Hamas, Tamil Tigers, al Qaeda, or the Jewish Defence League, is done more carefully.) In any event, it appears open to citizens to complain to the IRS, and advocate increased vigilance in terms of political activities by religious charities. Their work is in effect subsidized by the taxpayer, and they have no excuse for not sticking to their knitting.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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You say that god just wants us to know who we are, without worshiping it. That's fine.
What I have a problem with is the people who wrote the various stories about how god was angry about such-and-so and how it smote them down and told people to go out and kill others to prove their faith. Seems like that god wants people to worship it. In a big way. All religions seem to worship some god. Except Buddism, which is more of a philosophy than a religion.
And so those people who think the authors were ghost writing for god and want us to follow these sometimes historical, often delusion-inspired accounts use these stories as irrefutable proof of god's existence. If they want to live their lives like that, then fine. Do it however you see fit. The problem lies in that this is a country founded on the freedom of religion to be practiced or abstained from however we deem as long as it stays separate from state and national laws. When people go telling me that I can't abort a baby, or marry a different race or the same sex because it's immoral based on this book written & edited over the last few thousand years, or want my kids to say "under god" and recite the 10 commandments because they fear some notion of a vengeful god, then they'd better offer up some concrete irrefutible proof to convince me that they're right.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Way to go, you get him Skep.
.....
Whoa, Moosie wrote-
"This is a common mistake, to think that God wants people to believe in Him..."
This leads me to believe Moosie not only misreads ST posts but misreads the Bible as well.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
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Haha, you write as if Western civilization doesn't have a long and bloody history over one singular ages-old theology centered on Jehovah. And you post as if nobody else has any grounds for critiquing it or trying to move past it.
I don't see how I say anything like that. I said religion is fraught with mistakes and even evil. I recognize that many wars have been fought in a mistaken belief that that is what God wants. God says over and over, vengeance is mine. The law of karma will repay all debts. The koan is that sometimes we do act as the arm of God, but knowing when that is requires a pure heart. Few have that purity.
I just wish that the posts coming from your side of the fence started with:
Right there you have created distance. "my side". I don't have a side of a fence. I disagree with much of what dogmatic christians believe, and have attempted to explain this to them, but they are stuck in their beliefs and don't have any interest in what I have to say. So I let them be, as my way isn't to bludgeon them into acceptance. At one time it was, but now I accept that vengeance really is the lords. I do know that force rarely works and I also understand that sometimes one has to resort to what appears to be force, to break through someone's shell. I did this with my question to HFCS. Does he like being an ass? You understand that you enjoy it, so you are more aware of your nature. I appreciate that. I don't think that HFCS appreciates how he appears, as the know it all. He complains that others on this thread act as know it alls, then acts as one himself. It makes it nearly impossible to have a conversation, as there is no respect. Both sides act as know it alls, and so no progress is made. That saddens me as I know that some are genuine in their search for truth. But the truth isn't found when one thinks they already know it. It is found when one realizes that they don't know, and need help in knowing. Humility is the basis of knowing, but humility is impossible for one stuck in, as Werner would call it, the false ego. Yet humility is another koan, as once one has true humility, then one can know God. Once one knows God, as say someone like Jesus did, then one can speak from authority, and command the earth to be still, and it will. But few have true humility, as evil has infested religion and the ego most often rules the day. That is why Jesus said that the way is narrow, and few there are that find it.
This whole situation makes me laugh, because the ego still gets me sometimes. I was on the right course with HFCS, I just did it with an impure heart, as Pate pointed out to me. I love the irony in that. Thanks Pate for helping me see. And I apologize HFCS, for the anger in my post to you.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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And I apologize to you Moosie. We're all just trying to figure things out.
So, you ready to climb, I'll belay.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
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Religion IS all about worship.
Ritualistic worship.
And it is very much about control, about telling people exactly how to live their lives.
Lots of rules, lots of do and don'ts.
All predicated on the First Priority, that humans are born WITH Original Sin.
And it ONLY through immersion in the rituals of religion that humans can be
"saved" from that original sin, and thereby get a shot at heaven.
Examples of this highly NEGATIVE view of humans abound throughout Christianity.
Take Baptism for example. When I was being indoctrinated into Catholicism,
new born babies were NOT going to make it to heaven UNLESS they were baptized,
and not just ANY baptism, it had to be a CATHOLIC baptism.
Now, if that new born baby happened to be unfortunate as to die before
being baptized, then he/she could not in effect be forgiven for being
born in original sin, and would spend eternity in PURGATORY.
Now, PURGATORY was a BAD place, not as hot as hell, and no where as "nice"
as heaven.
And you were sent to Purgatory to "do penance" for some SIN you committed.
And how LONG you were CONDEMNED to Purgatory depended on the SEVERITY of
your sin.
Your sentence was decided by some spiritual being, like god or an angel.
So, non baptized Catholic babies were doomed to NEVER be with their parents,
because they were to spend ETERNITY in Purgatory.
Of course, if their parents also screwed up and got sentenced to Purgatory
for a period of time prior to moving on to heaven, then I suppose the
baby could see mom and dad, for a while.
But it was never made clear to me just exactly what sin that unbaptized baby committed to be doomed to Purgatory.
Oh yeah, now I remember, that baby was born with "original sin".
Little sinners, right away, as soon as they pop out.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
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This leads me to believe Moosie not only mis-reads ST posts but misreads the Bible as well.
No, I don't misread the bible, I just don't accept all of it as being God's word, or the interpretations that some put on it. The only reason to worship God is as Jesus said.."Ye are Gods". So you worship yourself. How do you do that? By being true to your true nature, yet few know their true nature. Anyone stuck in the ego does not know themselves.
If you fully understood that God/you was all that there was, then why would you do evil to yourself? You wouldn't. So few know their true self and thus evil exists. Not because God, who knows himself, creates evil. God allows evil to exist because he has given us dominion over this planet in that it is a school room where we, as children, can experiment with what we think is true. He warns us that we will reap what we sow, and he gives us guidance if we are open to it, but he also leaves us to our experiment. God is the ultimate scientist and creator. This is the ultimate experiment in freedom and growth. Science is a creation of God, it is just overrun with ego, as is religion and all mankind. Ego is not a creation of God, it is a creation of man. It takes true humility to be a true scientist, as it takes true humility to be a true spiritualist. Both can work together to understand all that there is, but only in a spirit of humility.
Edit: have to go now. I have a class coming up. Thanks HFCS, I appreciate that. I don't climb anymore. Too many health problems. Which is part of why I have been so angry. Oh the irony. Never was much of a climber, but living in Yosemite, most of my friends are climbers and I appreciate the sense of adventure of climbers and that the stakes create a sort of furnace that distills what is important.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 14, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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LOL, okay Pate,
You.. climber
Me.. former climber.
Oh dang, another fence.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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Pate:
"I am an atheist. I believe there is no god. You believe there is. "
Got to be careful Pate. There is no evidence gods exist. There is no evidence gods do not exist. So if you go with either conclusion you are ascerting something for which you have no evidence. You become a "believer."
Avoid that entirely by being a non-believer. Draw conclusions only when supported by data.
This is what I meant when I said the existence or non-existence of gods has not risen to the level of even being a question.
If you want to discuss something that is not yet even a question, merely state the data.
There is no evidence for the existence of gods.
When people all over the world start growing back amputated arms and legs with no medical intervention and doing so after interacting with certain people or after perusing certain literature, then we can ask whether gods have risen to the level of being a question. Even then there will probably be equally good explanations in contention.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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Pate wrote-
"I disagree that there is no evidence against the existence of god. There is plenty of evidence. Millions of years of natural history, and tens of thousands of years of human history.... The existence of Zeus was disproved by time. These modern gods are suffering the same fate."
I held back hoping someone else would pipe in. That's exactly right, Pate.
.....
Also, when one takes into account the human factor in the thinking, that's also plenty of "evidence" the gods of ancient cultures (from ancient Egypt to ancient Greece to ancient Mesopotamia) didn't exist.
Never leave out the human factor. Humans suffer false perceptions. They err. They lie, they exaggerate. They tell stories, including false ones. They bait and they take the bait. They like to use metaphors. They like to personify natural forces. All this is evidence, too, to be taken into the thinking along with science and history.
Speaking of being careful: One has to be careful he doesn't fall into old traps. Of thinking. Of phrasing things. Reframing it helps.
Also, if you're trying to move ahead, win people over to your side of the debate and such, you have to watch your language. Just as any marketing and branding expert would tell you. Stop referencing everything in terms of religious and theistic frames. E.g., by calling yourself a nonbeliever (jstan), even atheist (Pate). -Since these reference the very things (many nonexistent) you're trying to push past. I'm a "believer" in many things. A lot of Christians and Muslims, in comparion, are nonbelievers. In evolution for example. In Buddhism. In the machinery of life, etc.. Reframe it so that they have to wear these negative unbecoming titles (e.g., "nonbeliever") for a change.
.....
It is NOT reasonable to be agnostic or open-minded concerning Aphrodite or Poseidon. Neither Jehovah. Neither Amon-Re. Not in this day and age taking into account (a) the Scientific Story, (b) the human factor and (c) all of history.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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Trying to prove that something doesn't exist is a logic trap. Prove to me that unicorns don't exist. Of course you can't.
The onus of proof is on those who claim that god exists. Offer up one irrefutable shred of evidence that god exists. Just one. Take all the time you want. But don't bother me again until you have it. Hint: Your main obstacle to overcome is statistics.
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