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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 17, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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[scrambled eggs for breakfast, i guess.]
i'm not enough of a JT local to have followed the development and administration of the CMP, but if its permit system has never been implemented, and if a compromise was thrown out because of unreasonable concerns which were not part of the original debate process, i think someone dropped the ball.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 17, 2012 - 11:09am PT
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we ourselves have not been able to think of a way to solve the problem the Park faces.
And what "problem" would that be? Because if you're referring to the new routing issue, we HAVE been able to come up with a solution...a permitting system...that the NPS refuses to implement.
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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A permit system for bolting in the wilderness is in place. The JTNP website, the park's climbing brochure, and Vogel's JT West all instruct you to call the special use office for a permit.
Step 1: Call the Special Use Office 760-367-5545
Step 2: Fill out a Special Use Application: http://www.nps.gov/jotr/parkmgmt/upload/specialuse.pdf
Yes, it is a generic form.
Step 3: The special use office will call you for details. Then the application will be passed on to the climbing ranger for a field visit.
Step 4: After the field visit is complete, the application must pass the approval of all the department heads "squad". Squad meets on a weekly basis. If deemed necessary a NEPA evaluation may take place (National Environment and Planning Agency). Which basically is a full-range of questions addressing every possible impact a new route may have on the park.
Step 5: The superintendent has the final say and must approve the new route.
According to the current Special Use Permit person - John - and the former SUP - Don Roberts (who worked that position for over a decade) No one has ever called to inquire about a wilderness bolting permit. So, this process has never been tested.
However, as we all know, new bolting is happening in JT's wilderness. Despite Randy Vogel's JT West and Robert Miramonte's new guidebooks stating, "vogel p.25 -- it is currently not permitted by the park to place new bolt/fixed anchors in designated wilderness areas." & "miramontes p.16 -- placing additional bolts on new or established routes is illegal."
I will point out again, the bolting at the Underground Chasm is minor compared to the 9 steps that were chiseled into the approach. But those 9 steps are bringing lots of issues to the table.
I appreciate all of your feedback - and I want to continue an open discussion.
In my email to Louie Anderson, I said, "The best thing anyone can do right now - is to let other climbers know that this is unacceptable behavior in a national park, and even more so in designated wilderness."
Thanks again to Todd and his anonymous crew who went out to clean up at the Chasm. Really appreciate it.
Bernadette Regan
JT Climbing Ranger
bernadette_regan@nps.gov
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 18, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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Thanks or posting that information Bernadette. One concern about wilderness bolt permits is the requirement of an Environmental Impact Assessment, which could be required pursuant to a NEPA review. If that is the case a bolting permit could take years to get.
Does the park make an informal review of the permit request and only require a NEPA review if deemed appropriate? Would a "garden variety" bolt permit request need a NEPA review? Are there particular parameters which would require a NEPA review?
I read the Superintendents Compendium, I had no idea that Zombie Woof was off limits to all climbing and bouldering. I was shocked learn that snowmobiling is not allowed in the park.
A list of off limits climbs is listed below.
Pictograph Boulder (Township 1 South Range 8 East, Section 36) (beginning at the northwest
corner, 583829E x 3767204N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 583845E x
3767204N; thence southerly to 583845E x 3767190N; thence westerly to 583829E x 3767190N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Energy Crisis Route (Little Hunk Formation) (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 4)
(beginning at the northwest corner, 578242E x 3765552N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence
easterly to 578259E x 3765552N; thence southerly to 578259E x 3765537N; thence westerly to
578242E x 3765537N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Schwarzenegger Wall Route (north end of Rockwork Rock) (Township 2 South Range 8 East,
Section 4) (beginning at the northwest corner, 578510E x 3766002N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83));
thence easterly to 578526E x 3766002N; thence southerly to 578526E x 3765988N; thence
westerly to 578510E x 3765988N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Shindig Route (Indian Cave Boulder) (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at
the northwest corner, 577004E x 3764122N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to
577020E x 3764122N; thence southerly to 577020E x 3764108N; thence westerly to 577004E x
3764108N; thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Lonely Stones Area #3 (Township 1 South Range 7 East, Section 16 & 15) (beginning at the
northwest corner, 569349E x 3771711N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 569358E x
3771711N; thence southerly to 569358E x 3771701N; thence westerly to 569349E x 3771701N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
The Shipwreck (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at the northwest corner,
576926E x 3763566N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 576950E x 3763566N; thence
southerly to 576950E x 3763541N; thence westerly to 576926E x 3763541N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
Indian Wave area (incorporates previous closures at Chicken Wing, Heavy Metal, and Hell Flake)
(Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 4) (beginning at the northwest corner, 579284E x
3765501N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 579345E x 3765468N; thence southerly
to 579287E x 3765363N; thence westerly to 579226E x 3765397N; thence northerly to the point of
the beginning).
Zombie Woof (Township 2 South Range 8 East, Section 8) (beginning at the northwest corner,
576396E x 3763680N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 576415E x 3763680N; thence
southerly to 576415E x 3763658N; thence westerly to 576396E x 3763658N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
Maverick Boulder (Township 2 South Range 9 East, Section 23) (beginning at the northwest
corner, 591251E x 3760665N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 591274E x
3760665N; thence southerly to 591274E x 3760644N; thence westerly to 591251E x 3760644N;
thence northerly to the point of the beginning).
Wormholes (Township 1 South Range 8 East, Section 25) (beginning at the northwest corner,
582868E x 3769167N (UTM Zone 11N (NAD 83)); thence easterly to 582884E x 3769167N; thence
southerly to 582884E x 3769149N; thence westerly to 582868E x 3769149N; thence northerly to
the point of the beginning).
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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May 18, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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If you were a crafty NEPA mgr for the NPS, you'd call putting in new route bolts "Installation of navigation aids" and CATEX the route permits.
Replacing old bolts is clearly a CATEX event under "Replacement in kind of minor structures and facilities with little or no change in location, capacity, or appearance..."
Otherwise you write one programmatic EA (let's face it, bolting routes will never reach the threshhold for significance under NEPA) for the permitting program and then you're not conducting NEPA/EIAP work everytime a permit app comes in.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 20, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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"Stand down".... "Bully boy"....again? Sheesh. Get some new lines Coz. Your whole deal is beyond tiresome.
As a suspected chipper (not by me), Josh hold gluer and convicted illegal bolter, this is one you might want to sit out Coz.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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May 20, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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Well said.
Peace
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 20, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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How many routes are there in Josh now? Six Hundred Gazillion? Does Josh really, really need still MORE routes? Will there every arrive a day when folks come to agree that a route that gets bolted, gets done once, and then never gets done again -- or maybe sees a small handful of ascents over the next 20 years -- was a route maybe not worth bolting for?
Just some rhetorical questions. Food for thought.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 20, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Apparently not.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 20, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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And maybe egos will become passè...
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xx--J-Tree Trad Master--xx
Gym climber
Las Vegas
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May 28, 2012 - 03:55am PT
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I think there should be a permit system for impatient people waiting for their turn on Walk on the Wild Side...... BTW who would bolt a choss pile like that anyway?????
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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May 28, 2012 - 08:45am PT
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Happy Memorial Day!
You're welcome.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 29, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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"Cos sez: Really your rants, are truly shameful..."
Man, it don't get any richer than that!
"Russ, call Randy or Todd and talk with them, it's shocking your ignorance, and it's pathetic and sad your envy and jealousy."
Your crystal ball is letting you down. As for the other stuff, well, it continues to shed light on your sickness. I actually pity you. I know it must me tough fighting all the bullies on the internet and securing crag access for all of us. Long day, I bet.
Seriously Coz, since you continuously post in the manner that you do, with all the unprovoked attacks and sh#t slinging, not just toward me, but toward all the other good folks too, it is fast becoming a problem that will be addressed. Your list of rants against good people who don't deserve anything like the BS you spew is becoming something to behold. I know you are all growed up now and have found your voice, and unfortunately a fully entertained audience that loves the clown-show to go along with it, but really... The path you are currently on is not a good one, and it is becoming your new legacy. And no, they do not think you're "joking" (as you like to say) as you try to wriggle out of your statements. They mostly think you are a pretty troubled guy that is to a large degree taking away from what the forum is supposed to be about.
Take it for what you will.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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May 30, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
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Looking Sketchy said: "And contrary to what has been suggestion by Tom Higgins, local climbers have been very much involved in the climbing management process. And, one should not take the stupidity of a couple climbers as reflecting the general situation on the ground."
I did not intend to imply there had not been any interaction between climbers and PS on climbing management issues. Nor do I claim to be familiar with those interactions. My only point was the issues raised on the thread sound very familiar to those climbers and Park Service faced at Pinnacles National Monument several years ago and some of the resulting solution elements may have application at JT. If not, so be it. Those elements included:
 well organized, respected organization of climbers (Friends of Pinnacles) disseminating information on bolting, cliff access trails and ground up only agreement struck with PS to avoid outright climbing bans or an unworkable, restrictive permit system
dissemination via FOP and PS website of information about cliffs closed to climbing during certain seasons due to raptor nesting, and caution about placement of bolts on new routes (ground up only and no power)
cooperation between FOP and PS on clean ups, access trail development and marking posts
development of historical displays at visitor center recognizing climbing as a legitimate and rich use and featuring some history of climbing.
Again, if any or all of these elements have no potential or are irrelevant to the problem at JT, then there it is. I make no judgment or denigration of interactions between JT climbers and the Park Service to date, no do I claim any familiarity with those interactions.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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jstan
climber
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Jul 31, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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Well I went legal today. Without talking to the NPS I have been doing a little trash picking in the park.
To go legal you call George Land at
1-760-367-5507
I went down to the Park office on Park Blvd in JT filled out a form, and got a little volunteer pin.
The Park wants to keep track of the hours so George gave me a form to fill out and return each month. This is also done at Facelift.
Since my Golden Turkey was coming apart I got a new card in plastic. No charge.
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jstan
climber
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Here is a portion of the July hours.
I just scan it to email going to george_land@nps.gov
Worked like a charm.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, jstan got post #512, which somehow seems apropos.
Don't know that I'd want to be out picking up litter in Joshua Tree in July, though. Isn't it kind of warm?
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