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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 10, 2011 - 11:05am PT
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Well-done Ricky!
No personal insult intended by my use of the colloquial pejorative.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
the f#%*!n couch.
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Oct 10, 2011 - 12:15pm PT
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Whew!
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Oct 10, 2011 - 06:34pm PT
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Rick A,
Your call and as I said previously, a reasoned decision by FA party either way seems fine to me and you gave your reasoned reasons. On top of that, we had a provocative and wide ranging thread discussion on the whole business of retrobolting, another plus, though obviously there are "miles to go before we sleep" on that topic, if we ever sleep.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 10, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
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We will never sleep on that topic, but hopefully we'll have a nice glass of wine or two along the way ...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 10, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
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With a route name like "Super Chicken", the decision could have gone either way.
The cruxes of the harder slab routes at Squamish are often reasonably bolted, but easier sections are more runout. The general theory being that if you can get up the 5.11 part, you shouldn't have much trouble with the 5.9. After all, not one said that you have to climb it - there are alternatives.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Oct 10, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
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Roy, thanks for the fun and thoughtful proddings.
Ricky, good call!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 10, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
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I still think there is a difference between a climb that was sparsely bolted because it was too difficult to stop on lead and drill(example: Bachar-Yerian) and a climb where the FA party could have put in lots of bolts but just didn't feel like it because they were tired, impatient, etc.(example: Super Chicken).
I think it can be argued that if you believe that the FA party "owns" the route that you will agree that that puts the responsibility on the FA party to do the best job they can do to bolt a route. I don't think anyone is going to take Bachar to task for the paucity of bolts on Bachar-Yerian because he was one of the best climbers in the world at the time of the FA and if he couldn't stop to place bolts then there is a good likelihood that few others could have done better.
But, in the case of Super Chicken, and please correct me if I am wrong, the reason there are no bolts and no bolted anchor on the third pitch is that the FA party was getting impatient and just wanted to finish the climb. Clearly, there were opportunities to place bolts, but RA chose to just run it out and get off the route ASAP.
I think it could be argued that in that instance, RA had a responsibility to place enough bolts to not make it a death lead. That doesn't mean a bolt every 10 feet, but a few bolts to keep a fall from ripping out the belay or killing the leader would seem reasonable.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Oct 10, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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Bruce, there were lots of places to stop on both the second and third pitches of the Bachar Yerian and place more bolts. Bachar didn't place more because he was making a statement. Was that a viable statement? I sure think so!
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Oct 10, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
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One thing I don't recall seeing mentioned was the feasibility of slinging knobs, or say placing sky hooks in opposition and using a screamer. At only 5.7 in the meadows, there has to be a few knobs or peanuts that could be slung.
Sometimes in our, there is no crack we must drill mentality, we miss out on other options.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 10, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
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Jan,
if that is the case on Bachar-Yerian then I stand corrected, though I think my point about "artificially" creating a dangerous route still stands.
Years ago, a friend of mine and I put up a route on Pennyroyal Arches (we called it Myopia as a play on The Vision, but somehow it got into the guidebook as UFR). I would love to have stopped and drilled bolts wherever I could, but the climbing was sufficiently difficult for us that there are only three bolts on each pitch(both pitches are 5.10 something). In fact, my partner took a nasty fall trying to stand and drill what would become the second bolt on the first 5.10 pitch.
A few years ago, I went back with Clint to rebolt that route and noticed a line about 50 feet left. I came back a year later with Clint and we bolted the line on lead as well. The route is 5.7, but there were enough places to stop and drill that we put in about 6 or 7 bolts plus a couple of gear placements on the crux pitch.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that climbing ability and terrain should be the primary factors in determining how you bolt a route on lead and that the FA party has a responsibility to do the best job they can in putting up a route.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 10, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
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I agree with that Bruce.
And here's a distinction: the first person up doesn't so much own the route as they own the statement. (What remains is owned by all of us).
And that statement ought to fit thoughtfully into the larger context of its offering to the community. Which is why an appropriate mix/match of difficulty and run out constitutes the quality of the statement and hence the gift.
The Bachar Yerian is a statement of beautiful proportion.
Super Chicken, perhaps not so, but the rule we have in place is a pretty good arbitrary limiter, which is also a statement and in many ways a gift to the community as well because it attempts preservation.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 10, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
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please correct me if I am wrong, the reason there are no bolts and no bolted anchor on the third pitch There was a bolted anchor on the FA, if you read upthread carefully you'll see that RA remembers placing one (while JW remembers the opposite). There are still several pitches above to the top, and so there's a chance that the memory is from a runout pitch above (I led a quite long 5.7 knob runout up there one time, there were easier cracks around but the knobs were awesome).
One thing I don't recall seeing mentioned was the feasibility of slinging knobs, or say placing sky hooks in opposition and using a screamer. No knobs to sling, even just for a knob "drape" (as opposed to a knob tie-off), I checked carefully when we were up there. Hooks don't typically work on lower angle Tuolumne knobs (or the only knobs that would be hook-able are the ones that would obviously snap).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 10, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
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Standard G rated slab = 4 bolts per 50 to 60m pitch for slab up 5.8ish Still spicy but not warented to earn even a PG in the guide book around these parts. Sea of Holes on Whitehorse for example is listed in the Ed webster guide as Good protection yet sports mandatory 60ft runout. Do not know how long the pitch in question is but keeping the runouts in the 40ft range would be a great way to get folks to climb it and still have an exciteing day. Over bolted slab is ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ coma induceing yet stupidly underbolted is just a waste of a great route. YMMV
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 12, 2011 - 12:25am PT
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tom Carter
Social climber
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Oct 12, 2011 - 12:44am PT
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Thanks for painting them Todd.
Hope that serves as an example - I've seen a number up at Donner that were painted in place...Jesus!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 12, 2011 - 06:02am PT
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If you need to paint em in place make a cardboard mask that fits over the bolt and protects the rock.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 12, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
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[quote]Mr. Higgins, Tha Dood,
Point taken. I'd be interested to see the first ascent registry topic revived as well. So where do we take it? Perhaps a new thread? Karl?
I've got a good example of some routes which could really use a specific history. I'll post there in the new venue when we're ready.
EDIT
Here is a repost of the link to the original discussion started by Karl about the Registry; the one which Tom just referenced: it's really quite good and I would vote this is the best place to resume the discussion:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=20192
A repost of the link where Karl states his intentions for the Registry:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=20494[/quote]
I'm out of the net and loop a lot for a month or so. You guys do what you think is wise. I tried to get this moving a bit but now surrender it to the self-organizing system of our community to decide how to roll with it. Whoever has the most time and energy to devote is in charge
Peace
Karl
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
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As to the mystery of the conflicting memories of Jim and I about the 3rd pitch belay, I think Greg has solved it.
I do remember placing two bolts at the end of Pitch 3. After that there are still several rope lengths of easy climbing to the top. On one of those pitches, finding no anchors, I may have plunked down on a ledge with the trusty hip belay, braced my feet, and told Jim to come on up.
I have done this before on alpine climbs and easy rock, but only when I felt a fall by the second was very unlikely and that my braced belay position could handle a top rope fall.
That’s my story now and I’m sticking to it.
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Rain Man
Sport climber
Bishop
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Jun 20, 2012 - 01:11am PT
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I know this is an older thread and one that may have reached its conclusion, but I just did Super Chicken last week and have just read through a majority of the 400+ posts from last Fall (many of which were not only very well written and thoughtful, but authored by the some of the TM/Yosemite pioneers). I want to throw an idea out there and see if it has any traction/value to add to the discussion of this route specifically.
As background, I have climbed in TM since 1992 and lived in Bishop for the past decade. I learned to climb on the runout faces of North Conway and Canon, and in the Valley and TM; in a way I feel unqualified to chime in when so many of the TM pioneers already have, but would like to add the prospective as a “mortal” climber who does have experience on many of the TM classics.
Arguments already made in this thread that resound with me are: “the slippery slope of retro bolting not really occurring at TM, Super Chicken is not one of the established run-out test pieces, no one owns the rock resource, honoring the uniqueness and character of TM routes, and providing road-map type routes for moderate climbers to learn/aspire to the skills of running it out on friction face climbing with some degree of safety.
Right now as it stands 95% of the people who currently climb or will climb Super Chicken experience the route as a short, fun approach pitch to a cool belay, and then one of the best 5.9 crack pitches in TM. The route is then rapped. It’s a 3 star, 1 pitch crack climb. That’s just the reality of how the route is climbed today. Very good but short.
I did not climb the 5.7 run-out face pitch last weekend but did climb Greg’s route below and left of Super Chicken that conveniently provides a nice single rope rappel route. I climbed on the amazing knobs on the slabby ramp below pitch 3 of Super Chicken and got an idea of how good the 5.7 climbing on P3 of SC might be.
If a few, respectfully placed bolts were added to pitch 3 of Super Chicken you would “create” one of the best moderate routes in TM: a route to rival West and South Cracks. You’d have the best 5.9 crack pitch and one of the best 5.7 face pitches- both about 50 meters long on a line that goes to the top of one of the major formations. The route, as experienced by most climbers, would change from a very good 1 pitch climb to an EPIC TM route.
Yes, people would come and there’d be lines on weekends. The selfish side of me wants to keep this one pitch crack secret. And yes, that potentially epic climb already exists as it currently stands, and is there for people willing to face the runout pitch to experience (to many this might even add to its appeal). But right now, the full route to the top probably gets done 5 times a year. Seems like a waste of rock that was really made for intermediate climbers.
There is already a lot of “claimed,” very runout, intermediate face climbing in TM; it’s not a scarce resource, and there’s no shortage of those types of routes to climb. What there aren’t as many of is reasonably well protected moderate classics- that’s why they are so crowded. There are several climbers putting up new routes in TM the past decade that have found, to me at least, a respectable balance between extremely runout/dangerous pitches and over protected, dull, face pitches that dishonor TM's heritage/character. Many of them have already weighed in on this thread and would probably be willing to undertake potential retro bolting if the FA agree to the idea of adding bolts but wasn’t interested in actually adding the bolts.
I personally think that this route is just so potentially good as a 4-pitch outing, that if I had done the first ascent I’d be so excited to share it with moderate climbers in a way that challenges them without completely threatening them. I personally would want to leave that type of legacy route to the climbing community. There should always be the B-Y’s at the various grades in TM, but maybe this route’s real, intrinsic character and flavor suggests it exist as a different climb than currently equipped. Maybe some pieces of rock want to enjoy the company of people climbing them, to enjoy the energy and life that respectful parties of climbers bring onto the rock with them, even if it means adding a couple of 3/8” pieces of metal to make that passage happen. For example, a route like Snake Dike just seems to be Half Dome crying out to people to come climb me! Maybe that’s Super Chicken’s destiny?
Keith
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 20, 2012 - 02:03am PT
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thanks for Rain Man for the bump, and recounting his experience on the climb.
I'd like to go and climb it, including the upper pitches, before providing an opinion on the rebolting. Having climbed in TM for a while now, I suspect I could run out the 5.7, it goes fast if you aren't looking for bolts or pro opportunities...
but having read through this whole thread, albeit quickly, my one recurring thought is that not all climbs are for all climbers. there are a lot of climbs I think I want to do, and probably could do, but I don't do. there are lots of reasons, probably none of them good. but the fact is that a climber has to learn to respect their own abilities, and has to know what and what not to climb.
as a general matter I think it's ok to leave a climb that a number of climbers are going to choose not to do, there are some that will choose, and they will have a unique experience.
it's not like there aren't other climbs in TM
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