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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 21, 2006 - 03:58am PT
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This thread (haven't really read it) makes me think of a quote from Hitler:
“Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction.”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2006 - 04:30am PT
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Just because a website has court papers saying a judge is ordering the FBI to quit stonewalling about evacuating the Bin Laden Family without interogation immediately after 9-11 doesn't mean a judge actually ordered that! What are you, a fruitcake?
I mean, even if the government flew the Bin Ladens out of the country and then tried to cover it up, there's nothing to see there. They couldn't help it if they had a wacko son. I mean look at Jenna Bush! Is W responsible?
We can trust that, even though the Saudis financed part of the 9-11 attacks, they probably hardly knew they were doing it or George Bush wouldn't still be kissing them on the lips. Lots of former male cheerleaders do stuff like that and there's nothing wrong with it.
And the fact that George himself has business dealings with both the Bin Laden Family and the financers of 9-11 means nothing. There are probably a dozen or even dozens of people among the 300 million in America with closer ties to the terrorists.
There is really no point in questioning at all since anything a fruitcake says is fruity. So what if the government timelines, claimed to be accurate plus or minus 2 seconds are off by a half minute or more! Just cause the government claims something doesn't mean it's supposed to be accurate. Have you got used to that by now?
Because we spend the time and money to solve blatant and demonstrable contradiction, the naysayers will only find resort to nitpicking.
Nothing to see here. Back to sleep. No need to read the thread. Just trust. The government didn't lie about Iraq. Why would they say anyting misleading about 9-11?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2006 - 11:15am PT
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Looks like Russia has been killing its own people to justify war as well. One of their ex-spies defected to England and spilled the beans. In response, the Russians are suspected of poisoning him with radioactivity. In todays CNN news from
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/21/uk.spypoisoned.ap/index.html
"Litvinenko joined the KGB counterintelligence forces in 1988, and rose to the rank of colonel in the FSB. He began specializing in terrorism and organized crime in 1991, and was transferred to the FSB's most secretive department on criminal organizations in 1997.
Litvinenko quit Russia for Britain six years ago and has been an outspoken critic of the Kremlin ever since.
In 2003 he wrote a book, "The FSB Blows Up Russia," accusing his country's secret service agency of staging apartment-house bombings in 1999 that killed more than 300 people in Russia and sparked the second war in Chechnya."
Peace
karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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If someone could video tape, DVD, or TIVO this I would appreciate it and I would purchase a copy from you. I'm up here in Bishop at the moment on vacation or I would normally do this.
The climbing is always good, and it looks like it will be a good day to fly for paragliders . . .
Just found this on DU:
"Must watch event with David Ray Griffin, etc. on CSPAN2! Set your TIVOs!
Don't miss this and pass it on!!! C-SPAN 2 will air the Berkeley, Calif. event with David Ray Griffin, Peter Dale Scott, Kevin Ryan (who proved the steel was unburnable and was fired immed.), Peter Phillips, and Ray McGovern (former CIA) as M.C., based on Griffin and Scott’s co-edited book titled “9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out”
three times, THIS FRIDAY AND SATURDAY !!
Friday, Nov. 24th at 1 pm pacific time (4:00 PM eastern time) and Saturday Nov. 25th at both 12:30 am pacific time (3:30 AM eastern time); and again at 7 pm pacific time (10:00 PM eastern time)."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2792206
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 24, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
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I dont' suppose you'd buy it if I handed you a story from an admitted liar, traiter, terrorist who spent time in a sanitarium, but it doesn't matter.
Some Christians also dream of taking over the world. Some Israelis (including the founders) dream of having the whole Levant. Extreme Muslims can be extreme, no argument, I hate those guys.
Your "sell everyone on a religious war and let's roll" isn't the problem or solution.
Jerusalem should be an international city of peace just as the UN intended when they offered Israel a partition.
Failing that, let's move everybody out of Jerusalem, let or force fundamentalists of all relgions move there unarmed, and supply them with basic staples. They can make heaven or hell for each other.
PEace
Karl
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quicknthedead
Sport climber
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 12:19am PT
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Thanks to Klimmer for his post of this information.
Here is the summary so it can be understood easily.
And yes, it is a smoking gun (more like a derringer, but it still kills the OCT).
ctf
“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
Link: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Seismic_Proof___9.11_Was_An_Inside_Job.doc
By Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross, Scholars for 9/11 Truth: http://www.st911.org
The US Government, incriminated by its own facts, the perfect evidence—how ironic.
Summary:
News Tip: A real 9/11 smoking gun…that no one can debunk (these are facts, not theory).
Airplane “Impact” Times: Incriminating Evidence of 9/11 Coverup & Complicity
The official times for plane "impact" [precise to the second] as declared by the US Government, from both the 9/11 Commission and from NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology), are different and yet both are true and accurate times. What can this factual contradiction mean? Looking exclusively at WTC1, there is found an indisputable causal link:
One World Trade, September 11, 2001
American Airlines Flight 11 “impact” time:
8:46:30 UTC, per LDEO seismic data (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 2005)
8:46:40 UTC, per FAA last primary radar contact (9/11 Commission Final Report, 2004)
Q- What caused the 8:46:30 seismic event that occurred 10 seconds before the actual air crash at 8:46:40?
A- The only possibility is huge explosions, as corroborated by many eyewitnesses at the time.
Q- Who caused these explosions before the plane hit?
Notes:
In 2004, the 9/11 Commission avoided addressing the earlier seismic time (which had been attributed in error by Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, originally in 2001 as plane “impact”).
In 2005, NIST avoided addressing the 9/11 Commission’s later time for the aircraft’s actual impact.
Both the 9/11 Commission and NIST avoided addressing the many witnesses who testified of explosions in the sub-basements before the plane crashed.
Summary:
This precision data has yet to be refuted. It is from the two highest governmental entities charged with looking into what happened on 9/11. Both declared these times as accurate, and in doing so corroborate William Rodriguez and the many eyewitnesses the morning of 9/11 who testified of explosions in the sub-basements of WTC1 before American Airlines Flight 11 struck the building. This is indicting evidence of governmental coverup, and thus implication of complicity.
Before it is too late, demand a new, truly independent, criminal investigation of 9/11, this time a real one.
Justice waits...{and there is no statute of time limitation on murder}
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2006 - 03:13am PT
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Chuckar-
By "taken apart", do you mean the responses like 'I'm not going to read the paper', and 'It couldn't have happened so it didn't happen'? Your assertion implies more reasoning than what I read in the links. This issue of the timing of seismic data may or may not hold up, but it's worth looking into.
In the building field there's a saying- You don't get what you expect, you get what you inspect.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2006 - 01:22pm PT
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Chuckcar,
Yea, we're playing tag team.
ROTFLMAO
I have not hidden the fact that I am a DU member and often post there. Quicknthedead is also. I first found his work on the discrepencies concerning the pre-exlosions and the impacts of the jets on DU and linked it to here for all of you to get an education.
I'm happy to see that Quickenthedead has followed the post to his work here. I guess there is a way to do that? I personally don't know how to do that. Hey didn't the pilot from Pilots for 9/11 Truth do the same? I'm happy to see that they do. I'm not the expert in any of this as they are. I'm more than happy when someone who knows more about 9-11 to post-up. We all can get more educated on the facts.
By the way, I really don't go out of my way to hide my identity. I'm Klimmer on DU also. So the BCF and the Neo-con Rethug admin. know exactly who I am. Hey, I'm small potatoes, however I'm very active politically and they don't like activists like me, do they? If I ever dissapear I would like people to know. But they have bigger fish to fry.
I can just see it now, someday driving across the Mojave Desert on my way to Bishop and the scene out of the movie "Syriana" happens. Bummer . . .
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quicknthedead
Sport climber
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 01:38pm PT
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Chuckcar,
I ran across your site last night and noticed Klimmer's post. Even if it were true, that we were doing this together (which we are not), it would still be OK because the truth about 9/11 is critical. It is the most important matter to ever face the American people (if they would only learn of the facts of what really happened).
Secondly, your statement that JREF Forum and other places have torn me apart is debatable, but they certainly have not done so to the paper. No one yet has addressed nor refuted the facts in this paper. These are accurate, official times issued by the government; and, remember, there are many eyewitnesses who testified of bombs in the sub-basements of WTC1 before the plane struck the building (and the government refused to hear and present their testimonies to the American people).
Simply because you or anyone else says this paper has been refuted does not make it so. If you or anyone can debunk this information, I would welcome you to do so (then I could go back to having a semi-normal life). If you can, you will be the first to do so {in the world}.
Here is more information on the subject:
http://www.911myths.com/Recorded_Radar_Data_Study--all_four_aircraft.pdf
The FAA had all the aircraft data from PRIMARY RADAR RETURNS. Primary returns do not give altitude and can have some error in position, but they do provide precise time. For each station there was a radar track of the flight by position with accompanying timestamps. Each track was aligned to the 84th RADES as the benchmark (it had radar data for all flights from beginning to end). Once aligned, they adjusted where necessary so that all the data from all the stations was in agreement to UTC.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc01.pdf
We are dealing here with time. If you look at the Fig. 2 graph from the flight path study of AA Flt 11, all the primary radar returns {that were, BTW, estimated to altitude} have accurate times. The last one, sitting at zero altitude (which means nothing because it is a primary radar return), is 8:46:40. Remember, the NTSB took the data from the Feb. 15, 2002 Recorded Radar Data Study and incorporated all the data, including times, into the flight path studies the NTSB issued on Feb. 19, 2002 for all the flights of 9/11. The 8:46:40 final primary radar return for AA Flt 11 is part of that data, and can be easily seen in the “blow-up” presented in the paper:
“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
Link: http://www.studyof911.com/articles/mirrored/craigfurlong/
You should read some NTSB accident reports. The final radar return is always of particular interest. The 8:46:40 is an actual return. It is listed as "approximate" in the flight path study because of the radar-refresh aspect of the antenna going through its sweep; i.e., "approximate" because it could have also been:
8:46:41, or
8:46:42, or
8:46:43, etc...
because of the sweep/refresh aspect of radar antenna. But this also means it could not have been earlier than 8:46:40, only later. And if it were later, that would make the time differential between the seismic and radar even greater, so this is a non-issue.
Also, the paper covers how ATC Dave Bottiglia saw it disappear at 8:46:40 (this is a long, long time from 8:46:30 in the world atomic time-clock system, UTC).
Regarding the seismic time, NIST contracted with LDEO to reanalyze the times from 2001. This effort ended with NIST accepting the revised times, as found in their section entitled: "ABSOLUTE TIME ACCURACY". The time for WTC1 plane "impact" was 8:46:30 (this was not the plane’s impact).
Regarding the NIST “ABSOLUTE TIME ACCURACY”, read 3.5 and 3.6 from Chapter 3. Here is the link (be patient; it is a huge file):
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_1-8.pdf
There is no question, all times were synchronized to UTC.
The cold, hard truth for all who believe in the official government theory {OCT} is that the facts of this paper contain accurate data put out by the government (where neither it's right hand nor left hand knew what the other was doing),...AND...it is not up to the authors to prove the data is true.
IT IS UP TO CRITICS TO SHOW THE DATA IS FALSE.
The US Government is incriminated by its own facts, the perfect evidence—how ironic.
This is a real 9/11 smoking gun…that no one can debunk (these are facts, not theory).
Summary:
This precision data has yet to be refuted. It is from the two highest governmental entities charged with looking into what happened on 9/11. Both declared these times as accurate, and in doing so corroborate William Rodriguez and the many eyewitnesses the morning of 9/11 who testified of explosions in the sub-basements of WTC1 before American Airlines Flight 11 struck the building. This is indicting evidence of governmental coverup, and thus implication of complicity.
Demand a new, truly independent, criminal investigation of 9/11, this time a real one.
Justice waits...{and there is no statute of time limitation on murder}
BTW, I was very involved in the Hiking Club when I was in high school back in 1965-67 (president the last two years), and remember many memorable and exciting events we experienced in the San Bernardino Mountains.
Ah, the majesty and beauty of the mountains!
You guys stay safe!
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jstan
climber
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Nov 25, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
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Any thread lasting 300 posts needs to step back a bit.
As it becomes increasingly apparent to all that the recent foreign policy initiatives of the US cannot and will not bear fruit, I trust we will see increased bipartisan willingness to study how we can make our processes stronger. It is hard to believe our country is prepared consciously to seek weakness. We are presently facing a failure of the first magnitude that is now, worldwide, causing readjustment of relationships among nations to last more than fifty years. The WWII era has come to its end. That is sad. I was present to see fleets of B-17’s going overhead on their way to Britain. It was awesome. Then the Marshall Plan along with nuclear technology completely changed the expectations nations had for each other’s behavior. There was so much promise.
While the present US behavior is more characteristic of of the 1870-1917 era, there is yet hope. The recent change in China’s administration was the first of its kind. Power was transferred peacefully. As China builds relationships, a process it began last week with Pakistan and India, coherent development on the Asian landmass becomes a possibility. China’s symbiotic relationship with the resource rich Russia, I think, has to be taken as a given. Dramatic at times, surely, but always in their mutual self-interest. The final turn will come when Japan accepts its new relationship with that reality.
Much of what we in the US have come to expect as normal, will soon be history. Our personal and national willingness to spend future dollars has created huge overseas dollar reserves that will greatly reduce our opportunities for an independent foreign policy. We are to become the tail, and no longer the dog. We need to become realists again, look to Ben Franklin’s advice, and prepare for about 100 years of very hard work. Doing less will take us to a place to which no thinking person would choose to go.
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quicknthedead
Sport climber
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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Agreed about this thread being too long.
Chuckcar,
The seismic data you linked to has nothing to do with the time of the planes hitting the buildings.
Then you present two questions:
[QUOTE] Chuckcar:
So these massive explosions happened in the basements before the aircrafts hit. And the buildings did not collapse then?
But some how they cause the collapse to happen 90 floors above an hour later?
[END QUOTE]
You are asking for factual answers we don't have yet (I have my opinions, but we need the truth), and this (along with many other reasons concerning 9/11 {e.g., how about WTC7, the obvious controlled demolition}) is why we need a new, truly independent, criminal investigation of 9/11, this time a real one. This is not a request anymore.
It has become a demand.
One last thing.
WRONG! I do not follow Klimmer.
I follow the effect of this paper over the internet (and it is spreading).
Regards,
Craig T. Furlong
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quicknthedead
Sport climber
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 05:44pm PT
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You need to check out this new report by "Winston Smith" who has done an excellent job via photographic analysis of the damage area to the south-face of WTC7.
It shows that NIST is erroneous in its estimates of the damage to WTC7:
http://www.studyof911.com/articles/winstonwtc701/
That quote by the head of NIST investigating WTC7 looms even larger now (excerpt from this report):
Small wonder then that the head of the WTC project for NIST, Dr Shyam Sunder, stated in a March 2006 New York Magazine interview, "But truthfully, I don’t really know. We’ve had trouble getting a handle on building No. 7". Unless NIST can provide some photographic evidence that we haven't yet seen, it would appear that the institute's interpretations of the damage to the south face of WTC7 are at best grossly inaccurate, and at worst, deliberately biased in favor of their hypothesis for the collapse of the building.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 25, 2006 - 09:42pm PT
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Yeah, this thread is definitely too long. It's time to execute the conspiracy loons so we can get ready for the next conspiracy.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 25, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
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WoodySt,
When you say . . .
"It's time to execute the conspiracy loons . . ."
That sounds like a threat. And just who are the conspiracy loons?
Typical coming from someone living in Riverside. I know all about Riverside. You're continueing to give it a bad reputation --- home of the radical right-wing nuts. Do you own a gun?
Personally I don't believe in the death penalty, even for the Shrub and Darth Cheney, even though I detest them and their crime riden ways. Lifetime(s) incarceration without parole. Slam the prison door shut and throw the damn keys away.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 25, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
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"Yeah, this thread is definitely too long. It's time to execute the conspiracy loons so we can get ready for the next conspiracy."
It would be sad if this thread became longer than the Todd Skinner thread, so I am going to stop posting on it.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 25, 2006 - 10:16pm PT
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So just start new thread and label it WTC etc, etc whatever you like.
Police Officer: Sir, your eyes are red, are you drunk?
Drunk Driver: Officer, have you been eating donuts, your eyes are glazed?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 02:17am PT
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I deleted
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 11:23am PT
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It should be noted that there is a whole different line of questioning regarding the government not coming clean with the whole story about 9-11 that has nothing to do with the buildings going to but rather the motive, actions and interactions of the players. See the timeline at
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html
Read the list which is supported by news reports and documents, and tell me the 9-11 commission covered the bases.
Peace
Karl
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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How about UFOs for a while, or the Kennedy assassination, or Pearl Harbor, or Locker's brain.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
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The US public remains uninformed and indifferent, locked into a state of denial that is almost psychotic (Woody) in its disconnection from reality.
If the US public would rise up, the game would be over.
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