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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 27, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
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Now if we do this every 5-10 years based on the AAC journal, then we might get a better sense of the trends and we could make a graph.
actually, you don't have to wait for that... from my list here is the trend for guys and gals...
If you look at the Yosemite FAs by decade, for guys and gals separately, you see that most of the gal FAs have happened recently...
the guys peaked out in the 1980s... as did the gals but the gals are doing better lately then the guys...
in terms of the total fraction of FA mentions per decade, the gals are increasing
if you project that into the future it's quite possible that gals will make up 20-30% of the FA mentions in a decade or so
the times are changing
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 27, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
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life is short, but dancing with the devil up there is on the list of things to do... hopefully this year...
when I went up for a recon I was recovering from injuries, but now I'm climbing strong so no excuses...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 27, 2015 - 10:48pm PT
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no no no
the gals haven't put up as many routes, but the fraction of FA's they have participated on (just the gals) is higher in the recent past decades
I separated the guys and the gals to get an idea of the trends...
the gal's still have a ways to go to catch up
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ecflau
Gym climber
CA
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Aug 27, 2015 - 11:03pm PT
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Sh#t I really wanted the half millennium post but I was out gym climbing.
Sucks. Keep going though , maybe I can get the millennium post instead
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viv.r.e
climber
Sacramento
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Aug 28, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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Thanks for taking the time to put this together Ed. As a thought experiment (I’m not suggesting someone actually do this), I wonder if different areas have different ratios. It’s definitely true for other fields. Case and point: CA, 26% of the state legislators are women, but in CO it’s around 42%. For other fields people also think there’s a tipping point where having a certain percentage of women increases the likelihood of more women doing a thing. Also, it’d be handy to know the spread on how it long it takes for someone who has the FA/FFA personality to develop the skills to put up new route. Those to things would influence the rate of the increase, so it might end up being non-linear.
Kevin, based on your reaction to Ed’s data, does this mean we have another thing we could agree on?
I think that in 10, 20 years you will see more women outside and more women putting up FAs/FFAs. People like Lynn Hill, Ines Papert, and Hazel Findlay aren't anomalies any more than any other climber who pushes at that level. They are a sign of what's possible and what's coming
Who knows what the ratio is going to be in 5, 10, 15, 20, 50 years, or what innate biology has to do with it. I think if you don't know what is innate biology versus environment, assume environment in terms of how you act, then try to be positive force in the environments you’re part of creating. #metaobviousgeneralization
To quote (more or less) one of Chris Kalous’s lady’s nights at the enormocast:
“Just be yourself, don’t be a jerk. Unless you're a jerk, then don’t be yourself.”
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 09:24am PT
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the data backs me up on my challenge to Cat's opinion that women are more adventurous than men in climbing You are trying to prove wrong an opinion that I do not hold, nor have I stated to hold... I don't think women are more adventurous than men. I think women are entirely capable of being every bit as adventurous as men, and woman-ness is not synonymous with "lack of adventure."
BOf course, Viv, more women climbing means more women doing FAs. I've stated numerous times in this thread that that's a logical progression. Does this not indicate that women are capable of the same adventurousness as men? We are not trying to prove that women have historically been more adventurous, or that the average woman is exactly like the average man. We're just trying to say that being a woman does not mean one is incapable of adventurousness. What in the world is there still left to disagree about??
Perhaps this is non-obvious. A broad statement such as "women are not adventurous" will be interpreted by most readers as "women are inherently incapable of being adventurous." Whatever the intent, the way it reads lumps all women as one homogeneous (inferior!) group. If more nuance is intended, as I hope it was, that sort of phrasing occludes it.
Then a male should do the same study. Add Male Author Gate!!!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/01/sexist-peer-review_n_7190656.html
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 28, 2015 - 09:40am PT
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just to make a point, once the participation is 50-50 we've gotten to that equilibrium point... and being at 87-13 is a bit more than 20% there...
one can delve into the fine points, but the willingness to participate on an FA is already a major commitment to adventure, and to that part of climbing not describable as a "sport".
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:04am PT
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This has been a great thread to read. Somehow it didn't get destroyed by the end of the first page and still interesting after said page where so many repeat endlessly. Warbler, your use and context of the word 'primal' struck a chord. I would tend to go more with 'cultural' or 'social' as to causation of where climbings been and is going.
I would still tend more towards the argument that climbing, like much of everything we do as a 'tribe', is a direct reflection of the times. I would say that women's and men's roles were quite different in the 70's and continue to evolve as they may. And so it is with climbing. Cat's generation and yours Warbler are very different from what I can see and Cat's generation and those of other women's as well and comments about gyms reflect this. Most on here are of an older generation and see gyms much differently then today's generation. I consider myself to be an adventure climber in the mold of the 70's but I hope that I am open and non-judgemental enough to see the benefits of all the different forms of the game we play. And as far as gyms go, at least they are getting more people in the game and exponentially more coming to all forms of climbing from that.
Gyms and especially bouldering bring more and more women to the game and is that a bad thing? One of my best and favorite partners is a young women (Cat, you'd love to meet her and if your around camp four, go to the SAR site and ask for Josie. Tell her Tony sent you)who is a bad-ass first class. Switching leads on some of the most adventurous climbs (she told me the other day that other women have told her she should "work projects" because it would make her stronger. She told me that she would rather on-site to her abilities because there is more "adventure") I've been on. She has more sack then most men she climbs with and she's done FA's you'll never hear of miles from the nearest hospital. When you hand her the rope to climb some unknown horror onsite, she doesn't hesitate. And there are more and more like her out there. But this place doesn't represent that age group (so it's good to see some-one like cat going toe to toe with the previous generation). And Josie worked at the gym when she started out.
So, although I think men and women are wired differently, I think they can (and do) meet on common ground. And I think gyms, bouldering etc. reflect societal and cultural changes bringing about equality, at least in the climbing realm.
Edit: When climbing with Josie, I don't think of it as a novelty nor that she's a woman. Simply that she's more than an equal who's up for the adventure.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 10:05am PT
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It's SuperTopo, land of trolls, where it seems accepted to respond to an entirely outlandish statement that no one could possibly believe with another outlandish one :)
Should we move on to the part about how gyms and the resulting increase in female participation have all but tamed the wild beast that climbing once was? I think we solved this one with the adorable catchphrase "Bolts not boobs!!"
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 28, 2015 - 11:18am PT
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"Cat and Viv readily admit that women do less FAs than men, but contend that societal issues affect this number far more than how genetically predisposed to adventure women are." Spot on.
I would dare say that if Cat ( I don't know Viv's age?) were arguing amongst her generation about adventure that gender would be far less of an issue and societal much more the discussion but you chose to argue with the generation before on a site dominated by that generation. There are hardly any FA's being put up in the style of Worral et. al. back in the day being put up today by man or woman and, as a matter of fact, there were very few back in the day (men) who had the sack to repeat those routes back then. In Kevin you are debating amongst one of the few. What would be more interesting is to know how many (a much smaller climbing pop.) climbing men repeated "space babble" back in the day when "men were men" amongst the given population of climbers then. I think climbing may be less adventurous in general, do to societal issues, not gender issues.
Edit: To Kevin's argument: Show me exceptionally adventurous men from this generation! Single examples likewise don't apply. I would contend that in your style of climbing back in the day that you were an exception. But that was then......
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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(1) If we do accept FAs as a measure of adventurousness:
Female climbers do fewer FAs, but the number is on the rise. This indicates that adventurousness is NOT strictly a function of gender. Women haven't switched gender since 1980. With FAs as our metric, we'd conclude that there has been increase in female adventurousness, which seems to be at least correlated with a societal increase in female independence/equality.
(2) If we do not accept FAs as a measure of adventurousness:
No points are proven by looking at FA numbers, and saying women are less adventurous still has no data to back it up.
I would dare say that if Cat ( I don't know Viv's age?) were arguing amongst her generation about adventure that gender would be far less of an issue and societal much more the discussion wstmrnclmr,
Indeed! My generation (Viv is in the same age bracket) does talk about adventure, and gender isn't even considered as a determining factor. Amongst the 20s-30s crowd, we have plenty of discussions about on-sighting heady routes v. projecting sport routes v. soloing easy routes in the mountains, and what we're talking about is personal motivation, risk management, society's definition of "adventure," etc.
Occasionally gender comes up in conversation (perhaps when we see someone dragging a frightened significant other up a climb?), but even that discussion usually trends more toward, "Why are climbers so obsessed with their hobby that they can't understand when their significant other doesn't want to live and breathe it too?"
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 11:34am PT
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If it's not true, prove me wrong. Are you under the impression that this statement carries some power? As an argumentative strategy it's laughable.
So sure, maybe by the second definition women are less adventurous than men. But then you haven't really said anything about women. You've mostly said something about how men treat them. Yesssss perfect.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 28, 2015 - 11:37am PT
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Regarding the ongoing discussion here about the percentage of climbers who are women I heard some interesting stats yesterday.
The Ouray Ice Park keeps track of participants and they do it by gender. 46% of all climbers in the Ice Park last season were women.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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This is like having sex in the same position with the same person for eternity.
Not that I know what that's like...
Ha!
While the rest of us experiment with our words, clarify definitions, flesh out ideas and adjust our opinions, and learn a lot about each other in the process...
you keep repeating the same phrase like a broken record, and no matter WHAT feedback you get, you keep doing the same thing.
By your analogy, everyone in this thread is a way more adventurous and considerate lover than you.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Aug 28, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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Burch took the paraphrased words right out of my mouth (good job lad). Gender has been the at forefront but what of adventure and how to define? Talk about a thread killer! The dabate has been endless. How did Ed measure or decide what climbs are 'adventure' climbs? And then how to apply the discussion? Go there and you've got a true mess on your hands......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 28, 2015 - 11:57am PT
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"Adventure only begins when things start going wrong".......Yvon Chouinard. Given that definition it would seem that men have more adventure....they're certainly better than women at screwing things up.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 11:57am PT
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Burch is saying you are right by definition 2, which means.....next to nothing.
mike defined the distinction well:
I think there's a lot of talking past each other with regards to what we mean by "adventurousness" in this thread. I see two definitions:
Def. 1: Adventurousness as synonymous with "innate adventurousness". By this definition, when one says "women are less adventurousness than men" one really means "women are genetically wired as less adventurous than men".
Def. 2: Adventurousness simply meaning "willing to go on adventures".
It's completely possible that women, on average, could be less "willing to go on adventures" without being "genetically wired as less adventurous than men" due to societal influence, gender roles, etc.
So sure, maybe by the second definition women are less adventurous than men. But then you haven't really said anything about women. You've mostly said something about how men treat them.
The first definition is really hard to say anything about. FA count is nowhere sufficient data.
"Adventure only begins when things start going wrong".....,,Yvon Chouinard. Given that definition it would seem that men have more adventure....they're certainly better than women at screwing things up. Hahaha
Does this thread count as an adventure? It's a total mess :)
This argument is amazing. Even if one could say something that definitively proved Kevin wrong, he could find a way to invert logic and still insist it proved his point.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Aug 28, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
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Regarding the ongoing discussion here about the percentage of climbers who are women I heard some interesting stats yesterday.
The Ouray Ice Park keeps track of participants and they do it by gender. 46% of all climbers in the Ice Park last season were women.
Ouray Ice Park is an outdoor ice climbing gym. BUT that means there will be a better selection of ice climbing chicks that are competent enough to follow.
NAYCE!
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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BURCHEY, VOICE OF REASON?!
Never thought I'd say that ;)
BUT that means there will be a better selection of ice climbing chicks that are competent enough to follow. But they'll probably all just cry when they try to follow you, and all those salty tears will f up the ice. Keep them OUT.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 28, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
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Ah, the subtleties of the d-bag hierarchy! It's a thing my feeble female mind can't quite comprehend.
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