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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Feb 25, 2013 - 09:25am PT
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Dingus, the boulders don't belong to Ivan. They are not his to alter as he pleases.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 09:42am PT
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Dropline,
neither do the pinnacles climbers clean and trundle rocks from nor the cracks they clean with a hammer.
Your boundaries are artificial.
WE climbers seem to think this is our resource for the type of alteration we want?
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OR
Trad climber
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Feb 25, 2013 - 09:53am PT
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Dingus, what are your boundaries in creating boulder problems?
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Feb 25, 2013 - 09:54am PT
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Things are a bit different here in NY. It's on state owned land where such alteration is a violation of land use policy.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2013 - 09:59am PT
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Dingus doesn't see boundaries, only an infinite sea of featureless gray.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:02am PT
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:04am PT
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healyje
Trad climb,
Yes a continuum, a concept you are clueless about.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:17am PT
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Dingus doesn't see boundaries, only an infinite sea of featureless gray.
Take the Blue Pill Healy, the climbing world isn't as black and white as one would like to think it is.
My personal pet peeve: chain anchors on a trad climb that somehow fits into 'leave no trace' ethics.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:34am PT
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Peter, is that an original watercolor? Or an out-of-focus chipping incident?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:36am PT
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No pill necessary, basic common sense is all that is required.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:40am PT
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healyje,
your answer begs the question. Have you taken a dose of common sense or its too weak of a medicine for one with brain-lock?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:42am PT
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Don, this is a digital creation of backhoes trenching out the Great White Book on Stately Pleasure Dome above Tenaya Lake. You could call it a fictive chipping incident, yes. A Reductio ad Absurdum, if you will. Once the principle is established for chipping and gymnification of natural rock, let's get off the pot and get real and just do it right; let's just trench away for christ's sake. Let's bring together those petroglyph thieves from the East Side with modern excavating techniques. Then we will really have something.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:45am PT
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A number of posts back Kevin (The Warbler) posted a very valid question if anyone knew of a climbing area that has been closed as a result of chipping. While I am not aware of any such closure, I can state with certainty that many land managers/owners specifically consider this type of activity (rock alteration) to be totally inappropriate, so there is always a risk of such a closure. I surely would hate to have an area where I want to climb to be closed for this reason in the future. The video talks of the boulder being chipped as being on "public land" in New York. Climbers from this region are, or should be, well aware of the very difficult,long-lasting, and on-going efforts to expand climbing opportunities in New York state parks---places like Minnewaska State Park, adjacent to the Mohonk Preserve in the Gunks, and Thacher State Park outside of Albany, for example. There is no doubt that incidents such as this, if they become known to the responsible state officials, would very negatively effect our chances of success in these efforts.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 25, 2013 - 11:08am PT
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yep, Rifle and Maple would look a lot different without chalk!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 25, 2013 - 11:21am PT
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The whole argument of this is only based on this guy denying he's chipping and manufacturing holds.
Not about the ethics.
The guy is clearly chipping and manufacturing.
That is complete fact beyond all doubt.
The ethical arguments are completely separate issues which you all are going in every direction.
But beyond all doubt he's chipping and manufacturing holds with sledge hammer and chisel.
Some will say this acceptable according to certain circumstances.
Some will say it's never acceptable ever.
Some will say there's shades of gray.
Have at it kids ..... it's your world and you make it what it is ......
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Feb 25, 2013 - 11:23am PT
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Healyj likes to make up his own ethics.
Like putting bolted anchors in the middle
of a crack pitch and gluing loose holds on 5.7s.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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Some people are stuck cooped indoors with their fat wives all winter and have to log online to bitch at people to feel better.
I think if I posted this mid-july it would get a vastly different response.
Go on a hike, guys, or go rock climbing... sheesh.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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I'm not pointing to anyone in particular, just the image I have in my brain of what anonymous online a-holes must be like.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 25, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
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Learn the difference between morality and ethics. Morality has to do with when to kill, an entirely different matter than when to chisel. Emphasis YOURS.
Dingus, learn to stop making up your own definitions. You can't just change the meaning of words to fit your needs and then claim others don't know what they mean... that's immoral.
Moral: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral
No mention of kill in there anywhere.
What Ivan did was immoral, i.e. it was not conforming to a standard of right behavior.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 25, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
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So this is what happens, when the guys who should be snowboarding take up climbing! LOL
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