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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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May 16, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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a shocking 48 posts ever now by ana....
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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If my memory is correct the NPS permit system was one of the results of a brouhah several years ago regarding wilderness anchors that involved a number of large citizen groups. Groups that outnumber us substantially. What do climbers bring to the table? We could, by actually reaching a consensus among our own group, alleviate to a degree the enforcement issue that the NPS has to confront.
We are the source of this particular problem. I have not seen any equestrians out there attempting to winch their horses up Run for Your Life. If we are the problem, does not our chance of living with the answer, improve if we are part of that answer?
The first thing to realize is that certain freedoms come only when you have in your file cabinet a paper entitled
"Grant Deed."
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zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
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May 16, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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was there a permit issued for placement of the bolt protecting the crux on Double Cross?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Locker, I don't like chopping either but it seems to me this gets to the perps
in that it nullifies their little ego trip.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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I've been thinking about this all morning. Just read through the posts since my last visit earlier today. I've got a few comments/thoughts on this:
1) If the intent is to send a message to the person responsible, I'm not sure that any of this will necessarily do that. I guess there is no irrefutable proof as to who is responsible, but I definitely have my suspicions. If in fact that person is responsible, anything we do will not make him change his stance on things. I've gone around and around with him on things before with no change in his actions. I did talk to him again this morning and he stands by his original denial.
2) If the climbing community is to do something about this, we should be doing it to show the NPS that we can in fact deal with this ourselves and police the actions of the community as a whole. This is a very slippery slope, and I'm not really sure who gets to act as judge on what actions, if any, should be taken.
3) I personally have only ever removed one bolt placed by someone else. It was an extremely low bolt on an Owens River Gorge route back in the early days of development at that area. I called the bolter, expressed my displeasure with having a bolt 6 feet off the ground over a safe and flat landing and together we agreed the bolt should go. I then pulled it. That said, I am leaning towards some level of bolt removal in this case.
4) If bolts are to removed, which bolts? Does anyone have first hand knowledge of how many routes have the manufactured holds? Someone upthread said to remove the bolts on all routes approached by the chipped steps, but from my understanding of where the steps are this would call for the removal of just about the entire wall. As ElCap said, there are a number of fine, natural routes on that wall that are among the best I've had the pleasure of climbing in the park. Grahm's Eternal King ranking way high on my list of Josh sport routes. Personally, I don't feel like the other routes should go by association.
5) The last thing I want to do with a precious (these days even more so) day off is to drive out to Joshua Tree and trudge up to Queen Mountain on a hot day to deal with someone else's mess, but I will if need be. I have this Sunday free and will go up there and help to do whatever we decide is best. I will not remove other routes, but if there is a route in particular that sports these obviously manufactured holds the bolts can be removed and the holes patched without too much effort. Conversely, chipped holds could be filled in and the routes left for someone stronger to do in the future. Again though, I have no idea what kind of route count we're talking about. Does anyone have first hand knowledge? I do need to be back in Orange County by late afternoon, so it would have to be an early start (maybe leave the parking area at 5:30 am?), which would probably be best with the hot temps anyway.
6) Bernadette's pictures show the chipped steps as being pretty disgusting. I'm not really sure what can be done to patch or repair those. Whatever is done will likely always look like a patch. Should anything be done about them? Not sure how I would even approach addressing them...maybe someone else has an idea on that?
Anyhow, that about sums up my thoughts. I don't sit at a computer all day, so even if I wanted to visit more, my visits here are sporadic at best. I can get emails on my phone though. If someone wants to discuss this more you can email me at louieanderson@live.com or post something here and I'll see it whenever I can get back to the site.
 Louie
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 16, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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If my memory is correct the NPS permit system was one of the results of a brouhah several years ago regarding wilderness anchors that involved a number of large citizen groups. Groups that outnumber us substantially. What do climbers bring to the table? We could, by actually reaching a consensus among our own group, alleviate to a degree the enforcement issue that the NPS has to confront.
This recitation is factually incorrect.
A consensus was reached between the Wilderness Society, the National Parks and Conservation Association, The Access Fund, and Friends of Joshua Tree. The then Supt. of JTNP stated that if these groups could all come together with a plan, the Supt. would sign off on it and that would be incorporated in the Climbing Management Plan.
In reality, one individual who represented a local section of the Sierra Club (although the Sierra Club National organization did not support her position) objected to ANY fixed anchors. She (and some others within the Park administration) persuaded the Supt. to change the agreed upon CMP so that it required EIA (Environmental Impact Assessment) planning for each proposed new route with a fixed anchor.
This essentially killed the permit process (as it was designed to do), since the Park would have to design a Programatic EIA template (at the cost of literally Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars -- this process was begun but never completed) and then EACH application for a Permit would have to go through a EIA process which would require considerable time and resources of Park personnel (I recall a 6-9 month time frame to process a Permit was discussed).
Since the Programatic EIA template process was never completed, there is no process in place to process and evaluate a Permit application -- if anyone ever bothered to apply for one.
We are the source of this particular problem.
I understand that some Forum posters have an inherent objection against fixed anchors. While I can respect that people have differing views, it is not subject to debate that this is an extreme minority opinion among climbers.
Most climbers believe that fixed anchors have a place in climbing. The extent of their use (or abuse) is where most climbers have differences. It is my belief (and experience) that these differences are NOT insurmountable nor are the mainstream spectrum of views incapable of reaching a consensus.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 16, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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Someone upthread said to remove the bolts on all routes approached by the chipped steps, but from my understanding of where the steps are this would call for the removal of just about the entire wall.
The idea (at least what I intended to express) was Gary's routes and any other routes with chipped holds be removed as one option.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 16, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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Chop all the routes but leave the cut steps along with an interpretive sign
written by Russ W.
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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Randy: Thanks for your description of the process. It is pretty close to what I recollect. You established very clearly the so-called permit came out of the brouhah, as I said it did.
On your other objection, have you seen anyone other than climbers putting in bolts? So it is climbers who are putting them in. Right? My other point.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
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Just looked at the posted photos again. The chipped steps are obviously man-made and look to be done with a drill, based on the drill marks in the shots. They could probably be filled in with epoxy and maybe some rock crystals pressed into the wet epoxy. It would likely still look like a patch, but would probably be better than leaving them as they currently are. I could do this if this seems to be the majority consensus approach.
The first questionable chipped hold looks to be definitely drilled, however what I didn't notice originally when looking at the shots was a bolt sleeve up and left from the drilled hold, where a bolt has been removed. Has the route already been chopped?
The second questionable chipped hold shot looks natural to me. By that I mean it does not appear to have been drilled. Instead it looks like a snapped patina flake. This happens quite often in the Park and I can't see much to complain about with it. Most of the steeper sport routes in the Park, regardless of grade, have similar broken flakes.
Again, I can be free on Sunday if there's something we ought to do. I'm willing to go out there with whomever wants to. At this point though, we need to decide what ought to be done, if anything.
Louie
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 16, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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It seems likely that Bernadette is following this discussion, but she should be notified of any plans/initiative, and asked to comment and if possible participate. The NPS definintely needs to be involved. Perhaps whatever is done should be under the aegis of FOJT or some similar group, for accountability.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
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I agree with Randy that there is a place for fixed anchors. I believe they should be placed out of "necessity" and not convenience. I realize this is subjective, but we need to develop some kind of standard. If there is a solid, viable place for a removable gear anchor, please don't drill.
They should also be as discrete as possible. If sport areas wants to have clearly visible anchor chains hanging below the top, so be it. This does not belong in the wilderness.
My $.02
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 16, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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Randy: Thanks for your description of the process. It is pretty close to what I recollect. You established very clearly the so-called permit came out of the brouhah, as I said it did.
John, your statement (as quoted in my prior post) is materially incorrect since it: (a) states climbers did not bring anything to the table, (b) states that there is in fact a permit process (there is none), and (c) implies that climbers did not reach a consensus.
As for the issue of fixed anchors, they demonstrably do not have significant environmental impacts -- either directly or as "magnets" attracting climbers and increasing user impacts. A scientific study done of Joshua Tree Wilderness climbing confirms this.
But, as I conceded above, everyone is entitled to an opinion -- however we are not compelled to accept any opinion as true just because someone holds it.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 16, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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The second questionable chipped hold shot looks natural to me. By that I mean it does not appear to have been drilled. Instead it looks like a snapped patina flake. This happens quite often in the Park and I can't see much to complain about with it. Most of the steeper sport routes in the Park, regardless of grade, have similar broken flakes.
That is exactly what I thought when I saw the pic... Those sort of breaks are really common and even happen on lowly 5.10 routes. (but ya never know ;)
Those steps though.... damn.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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I contacted Bernadette and received an email back from her.
A few things from her email:
1) They (the NPS) are appreciative and recognize the climbing community's efforts to clean things up.
2) The most important thing they want done now is to spread the word that this type of activity is unacceptable.
3) They have asked that no actions be taken now. They are reviewing possible actions and if any are to be taken they will occur in the Fall. I gave her my contact information and asked her to keep me informed so that I can assist in whatever action is decided upon.
I'll let you all know if I hear anything further.
Louie
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
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i think randy's information requires some response from bernadette. the CMP permitting system has never been used? you need an expensive EIA to set any bolt in the wilderness area? the compromise worked out has been rendered ineffective by a noisy sierra club firebrand?
am i reading this right?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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May 16, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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May 16, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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"Piss off the right NPS person, and its on. They aren't all playing with full decks!"
This is exactly the kind of attitude that just adds to our troubles...
Jesus people are stupid.
It serves no purpose. Learn to choose your battles wisely. Running around like a five pound lap dog challenging the one hundred pound pit bull, then being surprised about the outcome doesn't exactly make a lot of sense.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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May 16, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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Let calmer heads prevail.
It sounds like the JTNP service accomplished their goal of informing the community at large of these destructive activities.
We all know now. Everyone condemns this activity and won't allow it.
Mission accomplished , no?
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jstan
climber
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May 17, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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Let calmer heads prevail.
It sounds like the JTNP service accomplished their goal of informing the community at large of these destructive activities.
We all know now. Everyone condemns this activity and won't allow it.
Mission accomplished , no?
Pretty much on target but there is something we can think about in the meantime. We all know in addition that we ourselves have not been able to think of a way to solve the problem the Park faces.
The Park needs our help.
Will we be ready to give that help even though we may not get exactly what we would like in the Fall?
Be honest now.
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