Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Hooblie!
So you like and even perhaps want a little more grist?
I see a completely independent opportunity in this whole thing.
Dig the concept of: the Second First Ascent.
So, we get this First Ascentionists’ Registry (FAR) rolling and out of that, among other things, we get the go-ahead to reshape the route catalogue a little bit, just enough so to smooth out the opportunity for those sport-wuss climbers of the future, (no doubt spiffed out with zoom packs and ray guns, but shy on the cajones), a clear path to pick up some old dad trad skills and likewise disinterest them in retro bolting all of our treasures.
With that in place, someone then “gets” to do some very limited amount of retro bolting. This is where the second opportunity opens; the operative here is “limited”, in this case better characterized by the term “scarcity”. You see, there’s all this talk of the one-time experience of the FA. One thing that makes the FA unique is the fact that the climber is roaming about on (mostly) blank rock with a bolt kit on hip and at-the-ready if need be.
Now, we all know that having that damn bolt kit handy while pushing out into the ethers is quite comforting and even empowering. So much so that the second ascentionista can actually be in, or certainly feel to be in, more peril than the first! This for a variety of reasons, the primary being lack of choice as to when and where to drill, and among others the experience of sadly missing the bolt altogether.
Enter the retro bolter. The person in these boots is now presented with what you might call an ersatz FA opportunity, or more accurately, the closest possible recreation of one (other than the situation wherein a previously unbolted and unreported line had unwittingly been bolted by a presumed FA dude). So given that the wishes of those as recorded in the FAR are most likely to limit this activity because they just don’t want their routes changed, we now have a scarcity of this opportunity which makes it potentially valuable.
At the same time, we’ve got a lot of crusty old dads now experiencing several conditions: the first being that some of them are getting wuss-ified and wouldn’t mind a tiny bit of retro bolt activity, the second being that some of them would still probably like to experience the taste and feel of a real FA, or something similar albeit watered-down, both which could also be typified as a scarcity. The third and crucial piece is that a growing chunk of that group, much like myself, are totally sacked out physically, financially, and no doubt emotionally ... and suffering from intractable or financially vertiginous health problems.
So you put all that together and what you have is an opportunity to raffle off the reenactment, to include retro bolting, of a couple of these old lines: with proceeds allocated towards the sacked out group who need that new hip, ankle, Mojo or whatever!
Example: we sell raffle tickets at say $200 a pop for those who want a chance to sail off into the not-quite-unknown and somewhat perilous territory on that third pitch of Super Chicken and do it up right. If we get 10 people involved this is $2000 in the kitty toward some broken down climber. A win-win on several fronts: on the putative front of staving the slippery slope, on the creative front of the SecondFirstAscent™ (SFA), and on the very real front of helping out some broken down climbers who right now stare into the bald face of an increasingly elusive health-care system.
There you have it!!!
SecondFirstAscent™
 Respect the past.
Make a gift to the future.
Experience a rarity.
Help out a brother.
Thank you for your time.
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland
|
|
The head component is what differentiates trad climbing from the rest, and unfortunately, trad climbing is slowly dying. RIP!
Free climbing is alive and doing quite well. If you're really concerned about the future of ethics take a noob out and show them how it's done. That act alone will have far more impact than whining online.
|
|
G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
|
|
Roy, there should be an extra fee PER bolt placed. Or we award additional raffel winners, one for each bolt. Of course this could lead to someone only placing one bolt because they are a cheap bast@rd.
The other option would be to just send everyone up on every runout route wearing a bolt kit. Then if/when they break down and use it it costs them a thousand bucks or so.
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
What if climbers had to register with a government agency for a "bolting license" like a hunting license?
That if there was a "bolt limit" like a bag limit in fishing or hunting?
What if you had to get a "bolt tag" like a deer tag or for other big game, to add a bolt to an exisiting route?
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
roger that last point goatboy
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
So if the FA says a bolt should be placed every eight feet it is cool right because he did the first ascent. Yeah like 10 to 12 bolts of the pitch.
|
|
Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
|
|
Goatboy, I stopped soloeing in the mid sixties, and that is probably why I am still alive. Nevertheless, I am certainly not alone thinking that the new breed of climbers are lacking the head to to the climbs put up years ago. That is why the bolting issue came up. If SC was still unclimbed today, would the FA party use bolts on the third pitch? You bet! and that proves my point.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
If SC was still unclimbed today, would the FA party use bolts on the third pitch? You bet! and that proves my point.
Not knowable, so it can't prove your point.....
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
I like to chew on my grist early in the morning..........
So are those removable bolts still being produced? Holes could be drilled for bolts but it would be optional to place the bolts in the holes.............
Roy, I think your idea has merit. I like the idea of the $200 fee with the money going to the broken down climbers ranch.,
Respect the past
Contribute to the future
Experience the moment
Help out a brother.......
|
|
Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
|
|
Removable bolts may have a place, but Tuolumne isn't it. Even real bolts are hard to spot in the sea of knobs which is TM.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Thank you Jack.
Keep in mind, I was asked directly by Ricky to think about this before the thread was started and I understood I would have to search out in my mind all the implications. In situations like this I’m just not given to single answers; at least not without some qualification. (My single answer though, is two bolts, so that the leader is still very much in a concerned and focused state of mind, in keeping with the theme of the locale).
So when I look at these implications, I free associate a bit to get there, add a grain of salt and leaven it with a bit of humor because those implications may not lead to the most practical scenarios.
Obviously I’m kidding about the fake quarter inch rusty spinners.
Tom Higgins did a nice job carrying the guidebook scenario a bit further in the direction I envisioned it, namely to include a head-graded list of routes to help the climber of the future move toward the more serious climbs.
Goat Boy makes exactly the right point about linking from the present to the future, by passing the skills forward now. Likewise, I don’t believe traditional climbing is dead by any means; it’s just that proportionally we all know there are changes. We can lead a horse to water but we can’t make him drink! A little bit of effort at structuring a path and helping out with it, then obviously we let go and what happens happens.
Is it truly practical to have a group of people engage in a contributory raffle so that one of them can lead up and install the bolts? Not if they don’t put the bolts where Ricky intended. He may have to preview it and mark his intentions, or just let things play out naturally. These are just thoughts and not staunch propositions.
Jan took that idea even a little bit further when he suggested each bolt be subject to an individual raffle, expanding the potential pot quite a lot. I’m not convinced he was entirely serious, as I may not be, but it would make a better fundraiser.
So here’s how that would work: if you look at the handful of folks right here on the forum who have voted yes for retro bolting, we might hope that they would be candidates for the raffle. So 10 people might have the option to kick in $200 for each bolt. That would then expand the kitty to $4000. This would likely mean that one person would go up and place the first bolt, and then another would complete the route, because it’s unlikely one person would win both raffles. Alternatively we can envision/structure this fundraiser not as a raffle but have people bid for each bolt, or for the whole pitch in an auction: now that might be really fun and even more productive.
In this I’m not kidding: I am looking at the practical matter. Let me make it a bit more real. Let’s say Survival, whom I know to be a good guy, is sincerely committed to the idea of the additional bolts and puts a little bit of skin in the game in terms of cash, along with some other folk. And we nominate someone like Bullwinkle or Tom Gilge as the recipient.
Thanks again for listening and thank you all for your contributions.
I have read all of the posts and find them quite good.
|
|
Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
|
|
Tar, Survival is not a good bet to enter the raffle as he might want to do the second FA without additional bolts.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Yes of course and good point; I am not nominating him either.
Just offering an example, as he has an excellent trad background but would like to see the route made a tad less risky.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
And Guck,
The point you make illustrates how wacky these things can get! For instance, not just anybody off the bench willing to put some money toward a benefit and gain a chance to do the retro bolting would necessarily be suited to it now would they?
Then you get into the time-honored concept of the “qualified leader”, a term which we used to deploy quite regularly. Haha.
What a bunch of bureaucrats, as GBoy said earlier.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
We are absolutely getting ahead of ourselves, not that I mind you bringing it up. So I should probably underscore the point that these are lighthearted musings, (not plans underway), musings ... ideas based on the future interest in run outs or on the irony of the second first ascent.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Mr. Higgins, Tha Dood,
Point taken. I'd be interested to see the first ascent registry topic revived as well. So where do we take it? Perhaps a new thread? Karl?
I've got a good example of some routes which could really use a specific history. I'll post there in the new venue when we're ready.
EDIT
Here is a repost of the link to the original discussion started by Karl about the Registry; the one which Tom just referenced: it's really quite good and I would vote this is the best place to resume the discussion:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=20192
A repost of the link where Karl states his intentions for the Registry:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=20494
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
|
I originally thought that most people would agree that adding a couple of bolts would be no big deal and an improvement to the route. It seemed to me that a 5.7 X pitch on a 5.9 route might be a “botch job,” as Roy put it. Almost 400 posts later, I have changed my mind and am persuaded not to add any bolts. Here is why.
Crunch mentioned early on that if anyone had done the pitch and wanted to leave it alone, that should be the decision. Well, it turns out that several here have done the pitch and most of those advocate leaving it alone. This does not deprive the resourceful from experiencing that third pitch. There are ways to do the route if you don’t want to lead it such as rigging a top rope or Werner’s “greater fool” theory: getting someone else to lead it.
But new bolts would permanently deprive those who want to do the pitch in its original state. I don’t buy the idea that one could just skip the added bolts and have the same experience. For example, I knew the Superpin history when I led the route and considered skipping the rogue bolt (added after Henry’s ascent) for the historical value. But self preservation outweighed my sense of history when I got there and I gladly clipped it. If it’s there, you will be hard pressed not to use it.
I hadn’t considered at all about the value of the pitch as a test piece for those who don’t climb at the highest levels. One might not ever do the Bachar Yerian, but Superchicken pitch three, perhaps. Thadood said to leave it as a test piece for those who desire to be tested. That works for me.
There is also much to be said for keeping some climbs where visits are rare. I see the value of establishing another potential,“Snake Dike” -like 5.7 classic, but there may be greater value in keeping some climbs lesser travelled. Climbing is a strict, and sometimes brutal, meritocracy: not everyone gets to do every climb.
Survival and others discussed a responsibility to make the route safe to prevent the possibility of fatalities in the future. This principle of building in safety for its own sake would neuter all risk in climbing. We all must accept responsibility for our own climbing actions. It really makes little sense for climbers to risk making our short time on this planet even shorter, but all climbers do this, to some extent, in exchange for our sport’s intangible rewards. The guidebooks warn of the X rating, and no one has been lured into a possible “trap”,even after all these years. I think I’ll sleep just fine.
I may have become "weenified" in my later years, but that should not be a license to “dumb down” a route to bring it in line with my present capabilities, even if the canons of the North American Retrobolting Ethic allow it. And there is always next year: maybe I’ll rage against the dying of the light by training and leading it next summer. Or better yet, Jim W. will go off his medicine and provide me with a snug top rope.
I mentioned Messner’s 1971 Murder of the Impossible article up thread and come back to it again. Bolts have always been a controversial topic in Yosemite climbing. One of the posters on this thread, Don Lauria, did the second ascent of the Dawn Wall with Royal Robbins with the intention of erasing the route by removing its bolts. I expect that Lauria and Robbins felt compelled to take action because they thought the spirit of adventure they had experienced as big wall pioneers was threatened.
Maybe retrobolting Superchicken P3 wouldn’t be the murder of the impossible, but it might still be a crime: petty theft of future adventures. In this case, preserving adventure means refraining from taking action and that is what I intend to do.
Thanks for all of your comments and a lively, fun discussion.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
A lot of experience and its brainy cousin history in this thread.
Although Rick A above concludes not to add bolts to the 3rd pitch of Super Chicken, I believe it would also be wise for him to explicitly state whether he is also against others doing that, even though I feel that is 99.99% implied in his last post.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2011 - 12:10am PT
|
Damn Ricky .....
Just blast some bolts in yer route if you want.
I'll back ya up ......
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!