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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Feb 13, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
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PotatoHead: Since you apparently have no intention of explaining your bizarre post, I'll do it for you:
The picture came from smoloko.com, a virulently anti-semitic, neo-nazi website.
Feel free to correct me, PotatoHead - I'll be perfectly willing to retract this comment if you can provide proof that I am being unfair.
In the meantime, I invite others on this thread to check out the above website & judge for themselves. It's a great way to get a look into the heads of some of the people who support Trump's candidacy.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 13, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
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Good thing you similarly had nothing to do with the genocide of Native Americans which spans the entire history of and unavoidably defines aspects of our nation - the holocaust we don't ever speak of. But wtf, they brought it on themselves and you and I (and Walmart) sure as f*#k had nothing to do with it, bear no responsibility, and certainly no need to understand how escaping a condition is not the same thing as escaping the conditioned mindset.
Actually, I didn't. Furthermore, Europeans did nothing to any of these "downtrodden peoples" that they weren't already doing to themselves, albeit less efficiently.
Last year I was in Nebraska and visited the main State museum, which had a huge section devoted to Native American history, as well as the relations between Whites and Native Americans. For once there was actual honesty on this subject, rather than a PC song and dance. Yes, we broke treaties. Yes, we slaughtered without mercy on some occasions. In NO way am I saying we were "good" to the native peoples. However, by contrast to the usual song and dance, just one plaque I captured said this....
You seem to conveniently forget that the Native Americans would have had a solid chance to "whip" the European "invasion" had they presented a united and determined front; they almost certainly would have kept a separate nation occupying a huge swath of what is the present USA. However, as you seem to conveniently forget, MANY of them were making deals with the government to sell out other tribes and even scout for the government to help it annihilate other tribes. The fact that they valued their tribal warfare and ancient divisions was a huge causal element in their downfall.
Again, do I think that the government of the time was "good" or "righteous"? OF COURSE NOT! But neither am I going to be shamed and pay and pay and pay for acts done generations ago, acts that I would not have done nor would have anybody I've ever known, and acts that just writ large the SAME THINGS that they were doing to each other before the Europeans brought a terrible efficiency to it.
You seem to have this romanticized version of "noble Indians" and "noble Africans" and so on. But there has been no such people! There has ONLY been wars and slavery and genocide and suffering beyond magnitude throughout human history. So, to single "Whites" out for special condemnation is absurd, and, again, neither me nor anybody I have EVER known is at fault or responsible. Reparations, as so many cry for? Paid to whom? For how many generations back? No, if you want to see reparations, you need to go ALL the way back to the initial causal chains that got certain peoples to destroy each other in the FIRST place! You don't get to single out this or that arbitrary time-slice and say: "The buck stops here."
I can be truly sad for atrocities done in the past, and I indeed am! But I am personally not complicit in them. And the "downtrodden" have ALSO been complicit in their own suffering, which you won't own up to. I don't say "responsible" for their own suffering, as you paint it! I say "complicit," because they are not (especially now) wholly lacking in responsibility for their PRESENT "plight".
Since you brought up the Holocaust as an oblique reference, I am no denier! But, again, every time the "masterminds" try to "fix" something, they end up CAUSING yet more problems, which is why I have NO confidence in political "fixes". To my mind, the nation of Israel can now either stand or fall ON ITS OWN. I don't believe in propping them up anymore, nor do I think we have ANY business being so invested in Middle East affairs. Oil? I would pay double what we have paid at the pump if doing that would get us ENTIRELY OUT of the Middle East! The nation of Israel is a pretty piss-poor "fix" or "reparation" for the Holocaust.
I'm sick and tired of the "masterminds" trying to "fix" things on my behalf, and I don't even share their motivations. There IS no "fixing" things other than to NOW ensure a level playing field. And "level" cannot in principle mean "intentionally propping up one group at the expense of others." The entire philosophy underlying affirmative action and the like is deeply, deeply flawed. At any rate, that's now water under the bridge, but I will not NOW be shamed and singled out for special condemnation for long-ago decisions or supposed racism that I do not share in.
Today is today. It is what it is. To all the "downtrodden" I would say, look to your own PRESENT culture, honestly and forthrightly, and ask YOURSELVES: "What are we doing to perpetrate our own perpetual victim mentality rather than to take ADVANTAGE of the MANY opportunities open to us to rise up and become genuinely PART of society rather than remain APART from it?"
I have known countless black people that I would hire. I have also seen countless that I would not. It's a culture thing, not a RACE thing. In fact, the most recent person my company offered a job to was a young black lady. She was obviously raised with refinement and was well-educated and well-spoken; we would have been proud to have her represent us among our customers. She was torn but ultimately decided to pursue yet more education. Our loss. But SHE is the sort of person we look for, regardless of race.
It's a CULTURE thing, not a RACE thing. Some cultures tend toward success, while others tend toward perpetual victimhood. The hip-hop, gansta-rap, "downtrodden" black community has a LOT of internal soul-searching to do LONG before they have any business turning their eye my direction.
In essence, this cultural thing is what Trump is tying into, and many, both blacks and whites, are finding it to resonate. I find him personally horrifying! But I also appreciate the savvy of the man for detecting the actual perspective that so many DO have.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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Feel better?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 13, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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Yessiree-bob
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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Cheers, man!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Feb 13, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
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New World Order 2! Re your mention at the end of your inane & insanely paranoid post copied from, God knows what Fascist site, you mention:
please note I love the Jewish people.
It's the Zionist Jews who are the evil doers, that I don't much care for.
Why certainly, why shouldn't we believe you? Likely many of your best friends are black, latino, & asian as well.
Right?
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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madbolter - You're entitled to your opinion, but it's one I cannot agree with nor respect.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 13, 2016 - 04:54pm PT
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You too!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:05pm PT
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Yes, we slaughtered without mercy on some occasions.
It's always a relief to be able to tell the DOWNTRODDEN that we only committed genocide occasionally (and if only that were true as opposed to a relentless and not-stop campaign of genocide).
P.S. How sad for conservatives to have to suffer the fact their candidates are clowns and buffoons - thank god Buckley's not alive to witness the spectacle.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
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I don't agree, Joe. But the real question is: What do YOU believe "we" owe at this point? What is the genuine fix you propose?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
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The facts in this case are highly disagreeable, which is why they are never acknowledged or discussed.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
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new world order2: At first I thought you were joking, but I am appalled to realize you're not. You are certifiably paranoid.
Perhaps when you have a moment, you can tell us about that all-time classic "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", which I'm sure that you've read from cover to cover.
By the way, there is a large variety of opinions among the who identify themselves as Zionists.
madbolter: I'm not unaware that blacks participated in the slave trade and that wars were fought between indigenous people in the Americas, but to have the arrogance to insinuate that there was no difference to the treatment both groups got at the hands of their white masters betrays an intellectual arrogance that beggars belief.
The support for Trump isn't the result of an informed electorate banding together in a spirit of goodwill to create a better United States. It is a coalition of ignorant, mean-spirited greedheads who are hell-bent upon destroying any trace of the principles that the Founding Fathers envisaged when they created the U.S.A.
Shame on both of you.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 13, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
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The facts in this case are highly disagreeable, which is why they are never acknowledged or discussed.
Okay. Whatever. My question remains: What's the grand "fix" you propose?
but to have the arrogance to insinuate that there was no difference to the treatment both groups got at the hands of their white masters betrays an intellectual arrogance that beggars belief.
Difference from what? Your statement is too vague for me to know what exactly you are attributing to my supposed belief, so I can't respond. But the fact that you ascribe "intellectual arrogance" to me doesn't make it stick. Opinions vary.
Again, since you are in the "fixer" camp, exactly what do you propose to make it all right again?
The support for Trump isn't the result of an informed electorate banding together in a spirit of goodwill to create a better United States. It is a coalition of ignorant, mean-spirited greedheads who are hell-bent upon destroying any trace of the principles that the Founding Fathers envisaged when they created the U.S.A.
Ridiculous!
Shame on both of you.
Your (and anybody else's) shame is precisely what I very intentionally and strenuously reject.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
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It's a CULTURE thing
In other words, as long as they act like a white, and talk like a white,
It's all good
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
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In other words, as long as they act like a white, and talk like a white, It's all good
LOL... determined to misunderstand, I see. It's okay. You apparently are not a business owner trying to find good help. If you think that some goofball, of any race, that can't speak proper English and wears his pants down around his upper-thighs, while blasting hip-hop into his ears while you're trying to explain the job to him is "good help," then you don't care for your business to last long. LOL
Well, I'm off for a Valentine's holiday excursion.
Later.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
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I'll see your absurd talk and raise 17 bucks (age 12-20). Should be easy nuff to train 'em up right good.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:29pm PT
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Knock down. Drag out with Bush. Phew. Thought it would come to blows.
Susan
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
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madbolter1:
are you seriously arguing that the u.s.a., as a structural entity, has done enough in the last 62 years to repair the mistakes made during its 178 yrs of structural racism and the in total 428 yrs of european descended but north american based structural racism that it was founded on and continued?
or, as it appears in some instances, are you arguing that no reparations should have been made, and that the repealing of federal laws in 1954 was all that was required?
or are you just trying to argue that you personally, as a white individual who had nothing to do directly with that past, should not be implicated in the guilt associated with those decisions made long before your time?
i get the latter, but as it appears you're arguing one or both of the former, i am left quite astounded.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 13, 2016 - 09:54pm PT
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In the local mexican store they have Trump pinatas for sale - not cuz he is revered, but to beat the sh#t out of.
I think they associate anything presumed "rich" etc as corrupt, racist or whatever.
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