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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Too lazy to read all the post but the only reason is brainwashing.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Challenge...why are the players in this case ask for others to always prove there is a God...how about those that insist there is no God provide evidence of their case.....instead of babble....
Do people believe in worm holes and time travel even if we cannot see them but Hawkins says they exist...does everything have to be proved before it is accepted?
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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HFCS you're talking about avatars. God can appear in whatever mask you like.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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There is no God Zeus. There is no God Jehovah. There is no God Poseidon. There is no God Amon-Re.
Do I really need to prove to you there is no God Poseidon? Do I really need to prove to you that Aphrodite wasn't born of sea foam off a Greek isle?
If no, no... then similarly I shouldn't have to prove to you Jehovah (aka Yahweh) of the ancient Hebrews didn't exist for Adam to Abraham to Moses either.
Let go of this ancient theology. The sky won't fall. Life will still be the adventure it is and it will still go on. Just try it.
Binks- Okay, agree to a point, so simply distinguish your God from God Jehovah in your conversations and this will cut a great deal of the needless arguing in half. Try it.
But God Jehovah for millions (including my grandmother) was hardly conceived as just an avatar or symbol of fate, even intelligent fate. They believe he's as real as you or me and carried out all the specifics of the Bible stories literally. -Including mating with a young human female to produce an offspring: God Jesus. (Quite a stretch from Diacrates or Hypercrates.)
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pa
climber
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"Pa there is truth in what Dr. F says. You sound like a truckler".
"Truckler" : A servile, self seeking flatterer. (Webster)
Mr. HFCS,
I am humble
I seek the self
I have found flattery expedient at times...but I wouldn't know who to address it to, in this case...or why.
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Brian More
climber
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
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Read Eric Hoffer, " The True Believer" .
Personal experience with a higher power: Snorkeling solo off a sandy beach in the Galapagos islands in November 2008 (can't remember which island or beach) I floated above the reef about a hundred yards offshore. From the depths, in the distance, a shape appeared. Adrenaline flowed as I waited for it's arrival. Closing fast, a large black mass. I held my position and was visited by a giant Galapagos sea turtle, looking for a snack. I treaded water (mesmerized), as my new friend munched on the reef... but wait! Again, in the distance, a dark shape moved closer... It was, to my amazement, another giant sea turtle! (were they a couple?-did they seek out my company for some reason?-were they drawn to me?) Many minutes later, and after much floating/observation and reef munching I knew I had been witness to a higher power, God/nature spoke to me, and I will never ever forget it.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Beat her with a rake...make her pay for her mistake....choke her , choker her till she sees god....the weasles...need more proof..?
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Here's the thing about you folks that keep denying God or gods exist. You seem so confident that what YOU believe is real. I bet almost none of what you believe is real is very accurate. If you go back a thousand years, you'd agree that people then didn't know jack squat. I'm sure though they sure thought they really had a handle on things. In another thousand years everything you think you know will probably be understood as a primitive fantasy. Don't be so sure of yourselves. God is God. He was there then and he's there now. Attempts to pin him down by using different avatars (Zeus or whatever) are a misunderstanding of divine intelligence. I don't need to 'believe' God exists. I experience it all the time. He's the guide and creator of my mission here on Earth. He speaks to me directly in a language I'm capable of understanding whenever I ask a question. It never fails.
BTW, there is a God Zeus, Poseidon etc. They are part of divine intelligence. I could call on any of those Gods if I need to.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Binks wrote-
Attempts to pin him down by using different avatars (Zeus or whatever) are a misunderstanding of divine intelligence.
(a) Attempts to pin ideas down by using different words are a misunderstanding of ideation.
(b) Attempts to pin entities down by using diffent names are a misunderstanding of things.
(c) Attempts to pin people down by using different names for them (Mike, John, Bill, Sue, Mary, whatever) are a misunderstanding of humanity, the oneness of humanity.
(d) Attempts to pin rockclimbing gear down by using different names for them (cams, nuts, slings, hexes, Aliens, Metolius, BD, etc.) are a misunderstanding of basic protection.
You don't see the analogies. If not, pretty lame.
The use of words, terms, labels in whatever field is a basic role of language amongst humans to improve understanding.
Good luck and good night.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Unfortunately, it is YOU, HFCS who do not see. I really have no need to convince you or anyone else of anything of this nature!
You see what you want to see. You hear what you want to hear. Simple as that.
For me God exists and so do all the "gods" of human history. They are all entities that have intelligence that I can call on. I have had some of them appear to me in visions of such dazzling complexity that no artist on earth has ever rendered. Things I couldn't have imagined in a million years. The are real and they are all warp and weft of the divine.
It's pretty funny that "modern" man, who has largely completely blinded himself to the existence of God thinks this is a superior state of intelligence. It's like putting out your own eyes and then claiming anyone who believes in vision is a crank. Now, I understand why you'd want to deny God and it's not about God at all. It's about the power people abuse who claim they or their sect\church\cult speaks for God. That's pretty much always a lie and personally I'm praying that the liars continue to be exposed. If you haven't noticed, the Catholic church has been getting what they deserve lately. Thank God.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Binks wrote-
"it is YOU, HFCS who do not see..."
Well, perhaps you misunderstand. I believe. I am a believer. I believe in Hypercrates. Moreover, like Einstein, I believe in Diacrates as a possibility.
But I don't believe in Jehovah or Marduk- just too ancient Mesopotamian to me. For my taste.
And thank goodness, too, because if I did believe in Jevovah, for instance, I'd be inclined to help pass edicts against Sabbath breakers (Num 15) and I'd be inclined to help stone them to death in obedience to Him.
"You see what you want to see. You hear what you want to hear. Simple as that."
Not quite. I've spent a lifetime studying the world's god concepts and theologies. Far more than just those of the Abrahamic religion. For me, it is (1) education and (2) trying hard to "live up to" that education. -That is what I am expressing here. Sorry if that goes against your perspective.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Remember, when the proverbial doo-doo hits the fan, there is only one to turn to: Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Savior.
Turning now to GOD and to Jesus and getting right with him before this happens, is much more advised. I wouldn't put it off for another day.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4380943
Matt.24 (KJV)
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
[45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
[46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
[47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
[48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
[50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Weschrist- I wish Earth had a planetary twin also in orbit around the sun. So we of like mind could set sail for this new world, leave behind these supernaturalists and contribute to a new speciation: Homo superbus.
I wonder if any evolved intelligence in the entire Milky Way could be so lucky as to have multiple planetary systems (chockfull of abundant fossil fuel of course). To enable dispersal. To enable speciation. To enable getting away from the Klimmers and Rokjoks.
But alas, not we, we're stuck. Having to get along. Having to compromise, negotiate, with these nonadaptive supernaturalists.
"If it weren't for God, we would have nothing going for us at all."
Yeah, ain't that crazy. I missed that one. I missed it because I take Pate's advice and skip all the nonsense of this poster.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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You aren't any different than the people who believe in God or other gods and thinking you could isolate yourself is funny. You'd have an outbreak of God believers before long if you did so. You've just made your own philosophies and beliefs gods instead. What you attack you just strengthen. Any god you contemplate long enough will eventually appear before you thru archetypal consciousness. The reason we can't reach agreement isn't the reason you think it is. In my opinion you have decided in your mind what God and gods must be, excluded everything else, and then concluded from that faulty construction that God does not exist simply because he does not exist within the criteria you have selected. God allows you to play this game and isn't miffed at your stance. It's called Free Will.
You probably think believing in God would somehow imprison or limit you. This is totally an error. It's the opposite. You don't gain anything by excluding God. You just lose guidance, vision, protection, and connection by that exclusion.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Binks wrote-
"You've just made your own philosophies and beliefs gods instead."
Yeah, but the difference is it is based on a modern understanding of things. Esp in regard to how the world works and how life works. As opposed to quite literally a bronze age understanding of things. Makes for a big difference. Big.
You think it's right not to distinguish between the god concept Einstein speculated about and the god concept fundamentalist Christians and Muslims believe in? You think the two are one and the same?
"The reason we can't reach agreement..."
Give it time. We've just entered a powerful info age. Internet-driven now. Give it time. 2-3 generations. Big changes are underway. The "practice" of living 100 years from now won't be domininated by ancient theologies or ancient theisms. People will trust them, they will have faith in them. These "practices" will be based not only on a modern understanding of how the world works but on new narratives and the world and its human cultures will be better for it. That is my hope and faith/trust.
Right now, we are experiencing growing pains.
"A watched pot never boils."
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Yeah, but the difference is it is based on a modern understanding of things. Esp in regard to how the world works and how life works. As opposed to quite literally a bronze age understanding of things. Makes for a big difference. Big.
This is incorrect. God is eternal. Modern understanding is modern understanding. In a little while it won't be modern. You can understand anything you like but God isn't tied to an understanding bound by time. When you experience God it is timeless. Concepts and understanding are fragments of consciousness. God is within total consciousness.
You think it's right not to distinguish between the god concept Einstein speculated about and the god concept fundamentalist Christians and Muslims believe in? You think the two are one and the same?
Religious people in my opinion are basically some of the most un-Godly people on earth. John Lennon said "Imagine no religion". Amen. He didn't say "Imagine there's no God". Religious people mostly haven't had an experience and substitute "holy" books, crooked leaders, and arrogant pronouncements from fools for God's truth.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Why?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You're correct Juan, it isn't logical. I do not believe.
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