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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 12, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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Back to M.H.'s post at 9:15 this morning. (Sorry I'm a little behind; worked all day). I missed the part about this being a local's decision only. Where did that even come from? If you ask me, everyone is equal, doesn't matter what part of our Great province you live in.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 12, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
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If they say there is nothing that could make them do that, then they're talking religion, and you might as well terminate the conversation.
David, I'm sure that there are issues on which you take an equally firm stance, for reasons of your own. Don't we all? And don't you want to try and understand why it is that people are opposed/concerned?
Moral relativism and values can be complicated things. If I'm opposed to the gondola, perhaps it's for good reasons - at least good to me. Not just 'dogma'. Perhaps opponents could better articulate their reasons, although you'd think that the intent and letter of statutory and procedural requirements in a country governed by the rule of law would be enough. Statutes and laws may be human-made, but are the agreed-on "bible" for our country. Dogmatically dismissing arguments because you believe that they're dogmatic doesn't advance the discussion.
Most of those who've spoken against a gondola say that they're opposed to one at that location - but not to one nearby. That also hardly makes them dogmatic or inflexible.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 12, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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Impressive; you guys are getting pretty deep. I might have to take a sabatical until the words get shorter again. Excellent stuff here.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 12, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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Yes, very grandiose words being used here.
Really cool pics a few pages back btw Bruce, looks
Amazing back there! Just clarify & echo Mighty's logic
I am against the gondola at the proposed location but am
not against gondolas in general, in fact I ride gondolas all
The time. My main problem isn't even the location although
I am not exactly an advocate of dividing public land for private
capitalist interests. My main concern & reason i am anti is that
it is not economically feasible or realistic for a "passenger" gondola
To survive & that it will go tits up leaving all of us to deal with it since
it since it has yet to be proven that the proponents will be
accountable should such a thing happen. We already have
enough "cool rides" in the sea to sky area & just because you build it does
not mean they will come. Look at the casino, they are barely
staying afloat. As i said before Who wants to pay $35 to go stare at a logged area with a
Lame loop trail & an overpriced concession when they could drive an extra 35 min pay $45 & ride A circuit of the best gondolas in the world & bask in post Olympic glory?
In comparison this gondola will not be world class & it will quickly become
No secret that that is the case.
I know that alternatives & suggestions are not an active
Contribution to this debate but I've been in this area for almost
15 yrs & Squam for the past 6 & it really bums me out that all the development
Ideas & $$ that gets tossed around never ends up in downtown Squam,
It is such a cool spot & has great potential to be a bustling spot in its
Own right but with the exception of condos the "big" proposals never seem
To have downtown on the radar.....
I wrote a letter(rant) voicing my concerns to the addresses that MH supplied & received a few auto Replies, I did however receive a reply from the local MLA thanking me for the
Feedback & telling me that feedback from constituents is very important
Right now, whatever side of the fence you are on I would reccomend you
Do the same as there is a much greater chance of your opinion having an impact
Than it will here. Sorry for the terseness I am writing this on my phone @ work.
Respect to all,
Ryan
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Apr 12, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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Bruce K-
Those are really descriptive photos of a very beautiful place. We used to call these "a Walk in the Park."
You know, back in my Kindergarten years, near Atlanta, Georgia, my parents used to take me and my only sister, at the time, on Sunday drives around a formation called "Stone Mountain" - Google Earth it, and you'll find a deep south version of Fairview Dome, in The Meadows.
I guess it's kinda weird for a 6 year old lad to wonder why his Dad didn't lead us to the Summit of this 1,000 ft dome. I mean, it was obvious to me that the west slope would go at a casual 3rd Class, and that for only about the first 20 feet of cracks, features, and ledges.
And what did the local developers do with this excellent granite dome?
Well, they started with a huge (like 100's feet high) bas relief of "Stonewall"Jackson, with some other Civil War troop, on the cleanest and steepest aspect of the north face, nearly vertical. Then came the gondola, also up the N. Face. As a Base tourist trap developed, a loop road around the Dome was built, followed in short order by one of those cutesy minature scale railroad trains, also a loop trip. Ornamental gardens surrounded this small Base Lodge, with plenty of retail/sales, eateries, parking lots, and assorted trash; artificial lakes and "water elements."
I don't know when climbing was banned at Stone Mountain. But, I'd bet that a few have sent at least a few routes, in the '50s and 60's. I lived down there ages 3 -- 6. And, in those few young years, I witnessed the destruction of one of the nicest domes in the deep South, starting with Stonewall Jackson. Forget which side he fought on...must have been Union, since his likeness appears on the USD10 bill.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 13, 2012 - 02:24am PT
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It's amazing to find out that believers in the sanctity of Class "A" parks are ideologues since they have principles.
Perhaps those who quote philosophers should also make it be known that philosophy isn't exactly a science, and that probably any human behaviour can be justified by quoting one's chosen champion. For example, I'm pretty sure that I can explain in a philosophically defensible manner an argument in support of always telling the truth which goes so far as to suggest that you should pursue this belief to the extent of truthfully answering the inquiries of a killer who is seeking the location of your best friend - who recently asked you to allow him to hide from this guy underneath your bed.
Without repeating my previous objections to this proposal (which, as far I've noticed don't get addressed anyway), it seems as though some of the supporters of this project counter with devastating logic that people who object to Class "A" park boundaries getting re-arranged to suit the FOR PROFIT schemes of the business community are somehow lacking a sense of fairness.
Integrity is not a character flaw, and I am capable of naming politicians of all stripes that I respect because they actually have principles. As a matter of fact, Winston Churchill (who was actually a bit of a jerk) is venerated largely because he was one of the few British politicians of his day who loudly objected to the compromises of his contemporaries (the "peace in our time crowd") as they meekly helped give away other people's countries to a guy named Hitler. Look it up - it's true.
Admittedly this isn't Europe of the 1930s, and I'm no Churchill, but I would find the arguments of the pro-gondola crowd more compelling if there was the slightest agreement from them that it is long past time that we demand our elected officials actually keep their campaign promises instead of displaying the kind of ethics that would make a sewer rat puke.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 13, 2012 - 02:55am PT
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Stewart is right. Eroding class A parks is a slippery slope. What's to stop them from using it as a precedent the next time they want to rape and pillage some park land?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 13, 2012 - 03:05am PT
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No Climbing allowed!!
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 13, 2012 - 04:07am PT
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No Bearbreeder that is a picture of the place that Kabala Arch mentioned upthread that he watched become continually desecrated & transformed from a natural thing of beauty into a total spectacle.
No Climbing is allowed there.
The place looks ridiculous.
The climbing looks like it would have been good.
edit: haha no i think Christy Clark would be a better carving choice for the grand, her pinnochio nose could be carved out of the pillar.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Apr 13, 2012 - 04:33am PT
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Ryan...the N. Face looks pretty good, eh? Love to poach it someday, but I've already biz with the Banditos route on the Totem Pole, Navahoe lands in Monument Valley, AZ.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 13, 2012 - 10:07am PT
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I've been working in the Capilano Watershed lately and therefore driving past the Grouse Gondola Base area several times. Nice big parking lot they have themselves. Someone on this super-time-eraser site with some computer skills should hit google earth for the gravel pit and lay it over the same for Grouse. That might be interesting, you know, as some light conversation.
Just wondering what they're going to do with all those busses and cars.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 13, 2012 - 11:33am PT
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Haha Bruce Kay inc. this is getting hilarious!
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 13, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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What is so funny about that?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 13, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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David, I'm sure that there are issues on which you take an equally firm stance, for reasons of your own. Don't we all? And don't you want to try and understand why it is that people are opposed/concerned?
I hope I don't take that kind of stance on anything. There are things I feel strongly about, but I hope that none of them fall into the "My mind is made up, don't bother me with facts" category.
As to the second question, of course I want to understand why people are opposed or concerned. I've said that repeatedly, and don't understand why you would even ask. In fact, as I said in the post you were replying to, all of the people taking part in this thread who have said anything in favor of building the gondola in that location have also said they are eager to gain more information and that they are prepared to change their minds.
It is you who seems not "to want to try and understand why it is that people" do not share your position.
You have repeatedly stated that you are unalterably opposed. Okay, I understand that. But why do you want people to listen to you if you are unwilling to listen to them?
And, for what feels like the thousandth time, I'm not a cheerleader for this project. I think there are plenty of potential positives and plenty of potential negatives. Why not consider the positives and negatives with an open mind? To take what amounts to a religious approach and say either "Development at any cost!" or "Parks are untouchable!" is to lose the respect of those you are trying to convince, and to ensure that they will not listen to you.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 13, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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Wow, still wish I could write like you.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 13, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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And I still wish I could climb like you.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 13, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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Oh I'm having lots of fun with it, no problem there. It's just that everyone and their dog is inc. these days.
Sign of the times, kinda like the gondola.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 13, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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Exactly Bruce inc.! The fact you are incorporated wasn't so much what I thought was hilarious as I did your previous comments as well as those of the many other silver-tongued wit-masters that have been posting on here lately. Good stuff & a very amicable debate so far as I can tell.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Apr 13, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
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Am I being naive assuming such good intent? Well judging from past experience with the Chief specifically, no and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, no again. If anyone can provide evidence that could change my mind, fire away. I agree that past history of Strathcona Park and Heliskiing in Garibaldi Park raise some valid red flags but I suggest that both had to do with interference from the Provincial government, not decision making within the bureaucracy of BC Parks.
Hi Bruce, yes, I think you are being a bit naive here. I agree about the Strathcona and Garibaldi heliskiing debacles being the results of Government interference. Personally I tend to trust the Parks people themselves. But the parks people work for the Government (and in theory, us). And that's the rub: to take land out of a Class A park requires legislation. Probably few people here trust the Government, as distinct from the public service, to do the right thing. So, the past history of Strathcona and Garibaldi suggests the same sort of thing will happen here.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 13, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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Are there not management plans for Class A Parks?
Without an effective management plan, every proposal like this gondola will require tons of citizen input, meetings, questioning of process, and be a total hassle for all but project proponents.
Why have a Class A Park?
What would the crew posting here do if there was an option for long-range planning?
Just south of the 49th, many of the options for non-officially planned trails for mountain biking are greatly reduced by concerns by government concerns over salmon habitat and water quality. (Added) Similar concerns over salmon and water quality are looked at in almost all proposals, thus management and development plans seem to help.
Good luck but look forward.
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