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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Somebody got Reinhold's number? I think we need his opinion.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Let's run with Messner for a minute.
I was greatly influenced by his idea of "not carrying your courage in your rucksack." So I climbed exactly that way over on the other side of the Dome, not carrying a hammer as a commitment to the first clean ascent of the Regular Northwest Face.
But it turns out that he was talking about not carrying bolts on a FA. That worked fine for him in the Alps. He proudly sprayed that he never placed a bolt there.
But for Yosemite, that would mean no Apron, no El Cap, no Tuolumne.
What works great and is noble for one terrain feels ludicrous and silly on another.
It's situational.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Chief...
...had this route been done by some visiting "Euro's" in the same fashion, the route would have been chopped in a week if not sooner and their presence never again welcomed into the Valley. That is a fact
I absolutely agree with this! Nice point!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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Message sent to Mr. Messner.
Best,
Brandon-
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Siegfried Lives!
There is plenty of Impossible on that wall. Poking along the base of the face, it's everywhere.
Have at it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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I don't think anyone would object to rap in route inspection.
Actually upthread there was a post about previewing taking away the potential for someone to do the route onsight.
I wouldn't have a problem with a rap to inspect and find the best line. But you often need to climb to really determine if a line will go. You couldn't do a 1000 foot top rope. So the next step is putting only anchors in on rappel and TRing each pitch. Which I think is doing the route from the top down.
Perhaps the only way to make everyone happy would have been to do the climb ground up with sparse pro, then the FA party returns later to add more pro bolts on rappel. So the end result is a route with reasonable pro, but someone had that ground up adventure. But then why are we so concerned with the FA party's experience if the end result is the same?
Edit: to answer my own question since this climb was publicized I guess the FA experience is important due to it's influence.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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I probably will rap down and try the last few pitches the next time I do Snake Dike.
Pure? NO!!
Fun? Probably YES!!
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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Okay, Kris, I see what you're talking about: the nature of the experience. I'd assumed you were making a carbon footprint kind of statement. I agree that the onsite ground up first ascent provides a very different sort of experience than rappel cleaning/scrubbing/top roping/bolting type route development, and your analogy works just fine within your personal context. I do know folks who derive a great deal of pleasure from the latter form of doing new routes. Its like there are different fundamental approaches yielding different sorts of satisfaction. One is more the artistic inspiration driven concept, and the other is the work of a craftsman seeking to move closer to perfection. Craft by nature is more repetitive, Art tends to be more unique. One does not invalidate the other. Seeing as how I'm married to a woman who straddles that Art/Craft divide in her work, its not surprising I'd bring that interpretation to the party.
That's all about the experience of the first ascent party, after that singular event though, its a done deal, and the specifics of how the bolt went in don't really matter. Climbing tradition dictates that future parties play the hand the first ascenionists dealt them. Its not okay to add fixed protection to routes, it shouldn't be okay to remove it either.
All this sound and fury is over the experience of a very few number of people, folks who are putting up new routes. Most of us in the unwashed masses just repeat the routes that suit us at any given time. It's in our interests to have a range of routes to choose from, a smorgasbord of challenge to fit wherever we happen to be in our personal arc as a climber, but its really inappropriate for anyone to dictate that only one flavor defines all that climbing can be, that we all must eat nothing but brussel sprouts. Now, I happen to like brussel sprouts, but I do enjoy a wider variety. We don't all have to like the same thing, isn't it a beautiful world?
I have a family, live within a varied community, and run a business. Having employees is like having dependents, people who rely on me for a living. I even have other hobbies. I'm 51, time feels precious. I live on the west side of the Cascades in Washington, where the moss and brush work diligently every year to take it all back, and I'm grateful to all the folks with the time to do new routes of all types, write guidebooks, share information, build trails, clear brush, all so that I can go out on a weekend and do a dozen routes. My thanks to Matt Christensen, Paul Boving, Andy Fitz, Jim Yoder, Marlene Ford and Curtis Gibson, I rode on the shoulders of your hard work the last couple days and had a wonderful time out climbing with friends.
For this peasant, Growing Up takes nothing away from Southern Belle. They're both routes I'll never do, but I've enjoyed the stories associated with them, and I'm glad the folks who put them up found them personally rewarding. Now, please go put up something a little easier for me, okay?
:-} <-- little smiley thing to let everyone know that I'm just having fun and not all worked up at anyone.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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OK, maybe dumb but sincere question. If you rap down to try to the last few pitches, what do you do if you can't make it back up? Do you leave a fixed line in case of emergency? I assume the bolts are far enough apart so to that need to do mandatory free climbing between them.
[Not that anyone would or should care what I think, but in Colo, it seems to work pretty well to have different sport and trad areas, and use the appropriate ethics for each area. I don't think the proponents of old school ethics are being unreasonable in trying to keep a few areas old school and preserve some rock for future generations who may want to do ground up. In case you Cal. climbers don't know, Bob D is not universally loved and admired in Colo for his prolific (to say the least) bolting. (But at least he does have a good eye for routes!)]
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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Ok Dave, I promise to wear real rock climbing shoes if you go up there w/ me and
check out what all the hub-hubb is about. This thread is good comedy at this point, but
until someone checks it out and gives us a real 2nd opinion on what they see, it's
allot of arrogance, speculation, and a measure of BS. It might actually be a great route.
Yes it differs in style than the other 1st on the wall, but I'm not sure what is really the
difference here and uncountable rap-drilled sport routes throughout the Valley, Josh,
Red Rock, etc. And I'm curious what DR has done here as he is a fellow guide I admire,
and genuinely a nice guy.
Dave, if we can get up the thing, maybe we'll be "world class" poseurs.
Doug
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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Now, please go put up something a little easier for me, okay?
No sh*t brother, my feelings exactly.....
That cracked me up!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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Perhaps the only way to make everyone happy would have been to do the climb ground up with sparse pro, then the FA party returns later to add more pro bolts on rappel. So the end result is a route with reasonable pro, but someone had that ground up adventure. But then why are we so concerned with the FA party's experience if the end result is the same?
Edit: to answer my own question since this climb was publicized I guess the FA experience is important due to it's influence.
the crux analysis IMO and best answer, spot on.
To put it another way, precedent value in an age of access issues has importance that might yet be usefully determined by questions of style.
Like Off White says, there is room for both in a country as large as ours, and not everyone thinks of 'maturing' in the same way.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
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I have dispatched advisement to Team Canada, last night, whom is presently in the Valley, of the first ascent plum available for the picking on SFHD. This team is young, rad and trad with single push ascents of Golden Gate and a Grade VI FA in Patagonia, Howser Towers etc ... within the past two years under their belts.
In spite of the advertising, this route has not seen a legitimate first ascent yet
Doug Robinson, would you care to add some notes on the gear list for the arch so I can forward that info as well ?
GO Team Canada !!!!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
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Finish the complete quote GARY....
I did, CHIEF.
Kris Solem says you're a great guy in person. That's good enough for me.
But when you brag about installing backcountry convenience anchors online, don't bag on others about placing bolts on rappel. Consistency is a virtue, too.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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Glad to hear the Canadians are fired up to do it. We'll all be really interested in their impression of the climbing.
In my opinion the FA has already been done. Personal opinion, though, and I'm not interested in debating the point.
Sean's hardware list on the topo is very specific. I have nothing to add.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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Kris says Chief is alright? Oh holy conflicting loyalties Batman! I got to hang around Doug Robinson during the Grossman/Mimi wedding extravaganza and thought he was a great guy, but Kris is the brother of a friend of mine and an old friend of my wife. How the hell am I supposed to know what to think if my various personal allegiances are at odds with each other? Now I need a whirly eyed emoticon!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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Oh holy conflicting loyalties Batman!
Doug and Sean had to know they would catch a ration. They did it anyway. No hate from me, just confusion and dissappointment. I would never call for the route to be removed, it's not my place to. Coz on the other hand has some big shoes to fill on that wall and I really understand his position.
Personally I don't think Yosemite's big walls are an appropriate venue for rap bolting, and I hope this route does not open a trend. Only time will tell.
Anyway I agree to disagree with my friends all the time, otherwise I wouldn't have many left by now. Heck, Shortimer wants to rap bolt a line on a new crag I found. I told him "over my dead body," but that's hyperbole too...
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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Wow-now this is getting really exciting!
A hockey match in Little Yosemite. After the crushing blow in the Olympics, perhaps team Camp 4 can redeem itself......................
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