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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:45am PT
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Kris wrote: That is a lot like saying if I were to ride a bike from LA to Bishop or drive there in a car the end result would be the same...
It would...you would still end up in Bishop. The experience of driving or biking would be different but you would still end up in Bishop.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:47am PT
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No Kris, that analogy doesn't hold, because the impact in your bike/drive scenario doesn't compare to a rap/ground up comparison. Oh, there's an impact in the sense you might wind up with a route where one might not otherwise be, but I'm just addressing Werner's logic regarding bolts.
If it doesn't matter how you physically make a hole (hand or cordless drill) because a bolt is a bolt, then it doesn't matter how you go about making the hole (rap or ground up) because in the end, a bolt is a bolt. I'm not necessarily advocating for that position, I'm just following the proposition. I don't see how one can be true if the other isn't.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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Okay Bob and Off, you guys seem to take the position that the process of getting something done is irrelevant from the final result. I do not see it that way.
I spent my professional career working in recording studios with musicians. I worked with players who could read a chart on sight beautifully, and I spent many hours editing together multiple takes from players who couldn't do that. End result in either case was a finished piece of music. Equating the two processes is the same as saying that since a route is "done" it no longer matters how it got there.
If I got on a bike right now and rode to Bishop my life would be different than if I were to drive. I barely remember the details of my last drive to Bishop but I recall vividly bicycle trips from decades ago.
Just my point of view. Cheers.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:12am PT
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Style and process are everything in climbing.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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please, PLEASE, don't remove the route before I have a chance to do it this summer.
thanks,
Doug
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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Kris wrote: Okay Bob and Off, you guys seem to take the position that the process of getting something done is irrelevant from the final result.
No I don't...I'm just pointing out that Sean and Doug chose a different way. It was a personal choice and that is the great thing about doing FA's.
I still do ground up and top down FA's...it is my personal choice.
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krahmes
Social climber
LP
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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Point to Ksolem.
If you drive to LA to Bishop you probably used 15 gallons of gas, released that carbon in the gas into atmospheric CO2, killed a fair amount of insects on the way up and given the speed and cluster grouping the weekend warriors tend to move up 395 probably contributed to the death of a rabbit, pack rat or snake or two; particularly in spring, which in turn feeds the ravens and not coincidently drives their population up. Finally when you drive to Bishop you end up, all grown up in Bishop, with a car. When you ride a bike from LA to Bishop none of this happens and you end up, probably broke with a bike in Bishop.
The process does matter in the outcome of the end result. And yes the analogy holds for drilling holes. Think about and break it down.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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Jeez, you guys have been busy (while I was out climbing in Yosemite for the last 4 days, hint, hint). It's going to take me forever to catch up on all of this.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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DMT if you ride the bus you are lesbian, as in "she rides the bus". and therefore you are confused about sexuality and will arrive in bishop and hook up with another lesbian climbing chick who is a quite the dyke and she will kick your a$$ for being so soft but you will both have fun doing it and then the consideration of who drilled who from the top wont matter cuz you will both be smiling.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:59am PT
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Mark, did you climb GU?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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Rap bolted aside, on my best day, I could probably not climb GU. I did have loads of fun on the Nabisco Wall, the start of the Nose and the start of Freeblast though!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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But, but, you're Mark Hudon and you're a badass! :)
Just teasing man, glad you had a productive Valley trip!
EDIT; Pictures Mark!
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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A quick question - has "growing up" been ascended by any party from the ground to the top, with fixing or a bivy or in one shot ??? Rapping in and doing the upper section on its own doesn't count
Yes or no.
If yes then who ?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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What a bunch of wankers. 3 years of bitching and no one has even repeted the damn thing..
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Someone would have eventually done SB without fixed ropes. Of course rap bolting is more of a stylistic transgression than fixed ropes but someone could always do the FA in better style unless you do a barefoot free solo.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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The Chief:
Integrity of Style & Principal.
When it suits you, The Chief?
The Chief: Right or wrong don't mean shit!
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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And maybe someday figure out a way to actually free the rappel-installed (!!) 60' A0 bolt ladder and pendulum too!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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you guys seem to take the position that the process of getting something done is irrelevant from the final result.
No, it seems to me the question for this particular route is what it more important the final result or how it got done? i.e. should the route have been done ground up in a better style, but the route would have had holes leading to nowhere, and sparse protection (like all the other free routes on the face), or should it have been done like it was sacrificing style on the first ascent to create a route that followed the best line up and allowing enough protection that more than one party a decade will climb it.
Edit: it seems the FA party deliberated long and hard on this question and chose the latter.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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Chief...you are wanker..lead by example and go do a better job on a route of same difficulty. It a big wide open face.
Bachar had the right to his opinion...just like the rest of us.
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