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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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"Maybe, toughs like BDA will never understand simple things like ethics, but allowing a limited wall to have a tradition of ground up seems like a very small thing to ask."
I reckon that wall still has such a tradition, but one route on that wall broke with the tradition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw
I prefer GU climbing, but I'm not keen to embrace tradition as law.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 26, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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NATE RICKLIN!!! WHAT's UP? I hope you're out cranking still! I was out at an excellently repel bolted cliff last weekend. Hopefully I'll catch you up in the Valley some time this summer. - Tony from the SD days.
I wandered over to this never ending thread to see what could possibly consumer more pages than the Bible itself. Having not read the first 2600 posts, I have no idea what's going on, but it's fun to see old faces.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Coz wrote: Maybe, toughs like BDA will never understand simple things like ethics, but allowing a limited wall to have a tradition of ground up seems like a very small thing to ask.
Ethics are not simple and have little or nothing to do with the sport of climbing.
Style Coz, style. You just didn't like the style they did the route. So what.
No one stopped you, the Chief or any other ground up climber from doing that route..you stopped yourselves.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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I haven't posted here, because I don't see it as my job to give my position/opinion about the ethics of a first ascent. Of course I have my opinions about good style like all of you, but I haven't virtually arrived on this scene late in the game to throw down my version of the right way to put up a route.
I always talk about climbing routes ground up whenever possible, not using fixed ropes whenever possible, and not having gear caches at the base or the top of any walls...whenever possible. This happens all the Valley, and throughout the Sierra. Since I've been in this job the NPS unofficial standard has been--climbers can leave equipment or fixed lines (not food) as long as they are actively working a route (be it a first ascent, or a project). When we do have to leave anything minimize the time it's left and the amount of equipment we cache. Of course sometimes the idea of "working a route actively" is taken a bit far and too long. The official word is no more than 24 hours unattended, but as we say, it's the spirit of the law instead of the letter that matters most.
I realize I am in the tiny minority of climbers around here that don't like the "historic" fixed lines up to Heart Ledges, East Ledges, and The Death Slabs. Out of respect for my self instituted policy of, "pick your battles--let the climbing community self police", I remove these ropes only periodically and don't spend my time climbing Free Blast everyweek.
I've called out a lot of my friends on this issue and others, and we've always had good natured discussions about the merits. The point is, the climbing community largely polices itself (I'm part of this community as well). We can have these debates without insulting each other, listening to different points of view, and respect. RESPECT, To me that's the most important part of all of this. We first have to respect the rock, the plants and animals that call it home, and the entire ecosystem. Then we also have to respect each other.
2 cents,
Jesse McGahey
Yos. Climbing Ranger
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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I almost forgot to mention. No one can chop bolts, or climb GU until the peregrine nesting closure for the South Face of Half Dome is lifted. Sorry folks.
The Cheif, the cables are outside of the closure zone. "Closure includes all routes from “Autobahn” east to and including “South Face Route”.
Thanks,
Jesse
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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Bummer. I was totally gonna do it next weekend. :-p
Since we've got a few more months for everyone to explain their extremely ambiguous POVs to us, anyone wanna make bets on whose aneurism ruptures first?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
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To be clear, GU means Ground Up in my abbreviation lexicon. Not sure if the "you" in your post was supposed to be me.
Because the rock in Yosemite is so generous with opportunities to apply the style, I like climbing ground up where the rock lets me, leaving the rest for my betters, perhaps in a future time.
I've broken my own rules in small ways (additional cleaning on the way down, replacing an FA pin w/ a bolt, etc.) I've gotten in arguments when I was offended by the choices or agitations of others (see numerous arguments retrobolting the face climbs on Middle). But as we near the zillionth post, the argument gets silly even if the topic is not.
And, probably like lots of climbers, I don't want anyone to tell me what I can and can't do, even if I would have done what you wanted w/o the telling.
(EDIT) "When me and Kurt almost freed El Cap, almost nobody thought it was very possible, now it´s common place."
The tradition of freeing El Cap was ushered into our consciousness of the possible w/ a lot of fixed lines and top down practice using retrobolts for the anchors and more than a few for pro. I'm still pretty sure that the only style that is "common place" for freeing El Cap includes either or both of the aformentioned strategies. And I bet at least half if not more (90% if you discount Freerider) result in calls to mags and/or sponsors. Maybe Tom can tell us what % of free ascents are followed by photographer ascents (or descents as the case often is)?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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The Chief wrote: Maybe that is the difference in some of us BDA....
Yes...some of us do have have lives out of climbing, work full time, raise families, are married and realize that climbing adds something special to our lives but is not an end all.
Chief wrote: I knew it would the center focus of my life.
My wife and kids have been the center focus of mine and I still managed to fit in some good climbing.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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Coz wrote: Do you suggest that all climbs be done on a first come first serve basis
Hasn't that been the always been the case or do parties need approval?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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Scott...I think they might be OK...it they can live here, Half Dome is paradise.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/nyregion/13falcon.html
Scott wrote: Peregrines, are beautiful up there, we climbed next to them.
If they were hatching you may have done more damaged than the trash.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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Renaming the route may not be a bad idea.
I vote for
"Growing Wings"
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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I kind of like your name.
I was just watching the scene in Avatar where the flying dragons shoot straight down a cliff face and then pop out into the valley. Which they totally stole from the swifts dive bombing Valley walls.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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Very insightful and poignant post by Jesse the climbing ranger. Thank you Jesse for a voice of reason, and for being such an asset to the climbing community. It is greatly appreciated, even by those that don't voice it.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Just for clarity - the coz guy who was climbing with a Kurt? Was he climbing with the Kurt Smith who got popped by the NPS (while trying to free some El Cap route) for using an effing power drill?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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So he he used a power drill, big fuking deal dude.
There's no fuking difference between the final product in the end.
It's a bolt any way you fill that hole.
Next complaint please, take a number while you're at it since there's about 2 million ahead of you .....
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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Outdated and mostly irrelevant there, Mr_T--find a back issue of a climbing mag or two, and then research more; enlightenment on an topic is most fulfilling...
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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Pot calling the pan black.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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Much harder ground up pitches were established decades prior to this debacle. The scenes have been played out on stages of much lower profile than this...time and time again. Kudos to Sean for his hard work on an eight pitch masterpiece but I believe he should have left it at that. I think he believe's the same deep down. If climbers are succeeding on moves of a similar style ten letter grades harder (only three years later) than GU it seems a no brainer that the route goes (ground up). Maybe one day with a partner who climbs at least at his level, he will go and climb the upper pitches ignoring the gear installed from above, gearing only where the stone, and ability, permits. Nobody knows the route better than he does.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:42am PT
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Werner said: So he he used a power drill, big fuking deal dude.
There's no fuking difference between the final product in the end.
It's a bolt any way you fill that hole.
By extension, it would seem that it's a bolt no matter how you made the hole too, right? The end result is the same.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:12am PT
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...it's a bolt no matter how you made the hole too, right? The end result is the same.
That is a lot like saying if I were to ride a bike from LA to Bishop or drive there in a car the end result would be the same...
Hey as long as we're tossing around new names for the route I suggest "Too Big to Fail."
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