Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
|
i oppose torture; i don't think waterboarding rises to the torture standard; ergo, i do not support obama's position on torture, which is why i criticize it...as fattrad says, obama won and has the right to try to enact his policies, and i have the right to criticize him for it and the right to vote to try to stop him
isn't this a great country?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
|
So do you think we were wrong to try and convict Japanese soldiers for war crimes for water-boarding Americans in WWII?
Also you say it's your right to try to stop him, but you seem to support his decision to not try CIA members who waterboarded or take action beyond disclosure. Is it so hard to simply say that you think Obama made the right decision in so many words?
|
|
the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
|
"i don't think waterboarding rises to the torture standard"
Almost being killed over and over isn't torture?
People subjected to this in Chile have severe psychological issues. Showers induce panic. Repeated drowning nightmares, etc.
If it's not torture then why do you claim it's effective? Or is that a contradiction you'd rather not look at.
waterboarding was learned from army courses for how to deal with torturing by countries such as north korea, etc. Isn't America better than that?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:25pm PT
|
"Come up with a less hypocritical argument. "
Uh....which part of the case against waterboarding is hypothetical? The one where real FBI and military agents say that it isn't an effective means? The one where our allies and enemies alike think less of our country for doing it, damaging our ability to get help and to win a war of ideas against our opponents? The one where torture is morally unethical as well as being illegal? These aren't "real world" enough for you?
"I don't care if Waterboarding is torture or not. Let's call it torture shall we. I think if it is used in the strict case of saving innocent lives then it should be legalized.
Doing so would make a better world. "
So you believe in repealing most of the Bill of Rights and allowing the government to do whatever it sees fit in the name of "saving innocent lives?" You know the crime rate in Saddam's Iraq was incredibly low. Authoritarian regimes are incredibly effective at maintaining security. Where exactly do you draw the line?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
|
I think what I find most ironic about all of this is that you spend half your time arguing that the Obama administration (if not gov't in general) is inept, corrupt and whatever and then the other half arguing that gov't should have essentially free reign to put whomever it sees fit in jail without charge and torture (or cause great physical harm) in the name of security. Don't you see a pretty big gap in logic there?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
|
"With friends like you who needs Bin Laden. "
With logic like that, who needs crack?
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
|
"Is it so hard to simply say that you think Obama made the right decision in so many words?"
no, i've said it before--look at "Obama is less popular than Bush"--about continuing rendition and the "domestic surveillance" program and keeping gitmo going and changing his mind about making vets use private insurance to pay for war injuries and others
it just so happens i think obama is wrong far more often than he's right
perhaps i could ask you the same question about bush: about giving more money to fight aids in africa than any other president including the first first black president and (so far) the second, which saved an estimated one million lives and increasing spending on education more than any other president...there have to be others, but i'm tired
|
|
jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
|
"And while I'm at it, if we were return to anything "old," I think it would be the mindset that we Americans are awesome, and should act awesome, not piddly, greedy, grasping, small and pansy-assed."
Whooo Hooo! I think this almost every day. That would be my exact definition of "nationalism". I wish more people would think along these lines. You can't go along bashing the very country in which you live. As opposed to most post on here I'm not for scrapping the entire system though. I'm for honest and inetlligent government. Something that will never exist. We need to admit our failings, learn to cooperate and fix whats broken with the system. Making the gov larger is only going to bring even larger problems. We're just moving from our imperfect system to another system that has been proven to fail. I'm a pesimist and I don't follow the logic of today's "forward thinkers" though. I don't care about international opinion or politics if they don't have a direct benifit to my country. I don't believe man will ever achieve a real working model of world government. We won't find new cultures and new civilizations within the universe and form a galactic union. History says we will reach a point of grateness and decline. There will always be a Chivez, a Taliban, a kim jong il, people starving in paper shacks in somalia, more people than jobs, food, money, etc such as in India, Mexico, Pakistan, blah blah blah.
So why not do as stated above?
Edit: You think the Romans had these same discussions?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
|
You think the Romans had these same discussions?
Yes, but all anyone ever does is just lip service, big plans spending billions of dollars planning and more lip service.
Doing anything remotely real practical?
Maybe $10 dollars worth .....
|
|
noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2009 - 09:47pm PT
|
"We now are posistioning [sic] ourselves to make the Taliban our newest enemy group."
Que?
I sorta thought we did that 7 years ago when we kicked their lame asses back to the Paki border.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2009 - 05:42am PT
|
"No HDDJ,
A better gap in logic would be the one where you claim up thread that you have the high moral ground because you are willing to risk the lives of your friends and family.
Do you drive with this attitude?
With friends like you who needs Bin Laden.
Skip "
Oh hey you didn't understand a post so straight to the personal attacks. Why do you hate America, Skipt? Why do you hate freedom so much that you want the government to be able to take it away from people? Can't you see that's what our forefathers fought for?
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
|
Skip
WAke up
You lose
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
|
skipt accusing Todd Gordon of being immature. Now this thread is going places.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2009 - 02:32am PT
|
Skip;.....not my posting;...just unknown people from the Roy-Boy party on my computor and it posts using my user-name;....carry on with your political rantings;.....not my cup of tea anyways....(Although I AM immature;...you have that part correct....)...
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2009 - 02:37pm PT
|
Dr. F- It always sounds so much better when Rush says it!
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
|
"He goes to some right wing crap site, thinks its brilliant
and then slaps it down in ST and says "here, look at this, it proves my point"
actually, f, i just enjoy annoying you...however, anyone who actually reads my posts and views the links i present must admit that i do have a variety of sources (even if i do prefer those that lean right)
where are your sources?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!