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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I'm not sure John, what sort of liability firewall exists between Boulder Mountain Parks, Colorado State Parks, and the subset of climbers programs which govern/regulate/implement the bolting.
Clearly a study of that model is in order in terms of our discussion. It has to have been addressed by Action Committee for Eldorado and the Flatirons Climbing Council.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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From the Flatirons Climbing Council web site:
http://www.flatironsclimbing.com/fhrc/index.php
"The FCC will administer the permit process through its Fixed Hardware Review Committee (FHRC), and will serve in an advisory capacity only. OSMP (Open Space and Mountain Parks) will make the final determination as to whether new routes that require bolts are allowed."
This tells me Open Space and Mountain Parks takes the first hit in a litigation?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Hey Wes,
Is that rockclimbing depicted in your photo?
Or a Houdini escape artist stunt...
Just a crusty old ground-up slab climber here; fairly well "ground up", as in hamburger, at this point too.
hahahaha.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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...looks like he missed a few clips...%^)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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JStan, et al,
Another statement pulled from the Flatirons Climbing Council web site:
"The permit process operates under the guiding belief that individuals can no longer take unilateral actions that affect all climbers without community input and consensus. Toward this end, the permit process exists as a public forum to assist and regulate the installation of fixed anchors with the goal of facilitating controlled growth of quality routes and anchors in the Flatirons."
So you see here where things can go when bolting really goes mainstream. You can forget about individual expression i.e. "unilateral actions". This is where on-site ground-up routes die off. Now it could be possible that "community input and consensus" might allow for traditional style bolting, and that might be so in some areas, but in general it looks to me like: End of the Road Baby...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: So you see here where things can go when bolting really goes mainstream. You can forget about individual expression i.e. "unilateral actions". This is where on-site ground-up routes die off. End of the road baby...
Not in Boulder Canyon, or the Black or RMNP and so on...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Yes Bob,
That is correct, for now, because it hasn't come under the purview of mainstream just yet.
And I agree that those of us that choose or aspire to wild experiences, need to seek out wild and less governed spaces.
We're getting marginalized, and that's just the way it goes with overpopulation and increasing regulation, and the idea that that's a necessary evil is a laudable perspective.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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My point in all of this Bob,
Is to take a dispassionate look at what happens in an area where regulation comes to fruition.
I'm saying it's quite possible, that once that happens, especially in a place like Yosemite, it will likely be really hard for the ground up first ascent contingency to find accommodation.
This is why I recommend climbers try to settle these differences prior to governmental pressure for regulation, so that a feasible plan to accommodate multiple styles might be set forth.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: And I agree that those of us that choose or aspire to wild experiences, need to seek out wild and less governed spaces.
Front-country usage is way up and back country way down...hiking, biking and climbing along the population centers will continue to grow and grow...solitude is out there and like you said...you just have to seek it out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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I'm with you Tar when it comes to hoping that climbers could just work it out, but that seems highly unlikely. All it takes is one person with the "if I can't have her then nobody can" type attitude to blow it for everyone.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oh I recognize I'm a bit of a Pollyanna in all of this Ron.
But I enjoy the dispassionate analysis, the dialogue, and I don't think it's all for naught.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Totally pulling your leg on that stuff Wes!
And don't even talk to me about messing with Frank.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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Hey Roy, has anyone disobeyed this committee and put a route up without prior approval or with approval denied? What happened to the route that was done this way?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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"And don't even talk to me about messing with Frank."
No kidding.
It's Frank's world. We just live in it.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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wes wrote:Don't worry, nobody wants to remix your Frank Sinatra choss.
Now Wes don't go showing you lack of music history. Frank...was the man!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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seems like this thread is circling the drain right now...
wes is doing his wes thing, taking the old crusty's quips seriously
the old crusties are rising to wes' bait
replace wes with "sport climber"
replace "old crusty" with "trad climber"
repeat observation -
I climb, I do it in all different modes, I have my own set of standards in terms of climbs I'd put up. If you ask me my opinion about someone else's climb, I'll give it to you. If you don't agree, I'll listen to your points, might still disagree though -
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Well, aside from the folks who refuse to even imagine any sort of compromise, the fact remains that sport climbers have much less motivation to create some sort of coalition or committee to divide Yosemite into style parks. The only driver for those folks is the rather vague threat that at some point the NPS might be moved to ban fixed anchors altogether.
How many Yosemite regulars under, say 30, are fully committed to ground-up only? Under 35? Under 40?
Yosemite is going to be a much more difficult proposition than Eldo, partly because it's a National Park, partly because it has a much wider range of user groups and constituencies, and partly because of dynamics in the climbing community, namely, that it is a premiere destination for big-wall nailing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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KLK,
Yes: I'd say that's a fair appraisal.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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G_Gnome:
Not to my knowledge has any renegade bolting happened here in the Flatirons or Eldorado. The historical clamp down on bolting severely curtailed a robust sport climbing productivity, so the current pilot programs are likewise very well valued.
Regardless of any of that, I'm not aware that a lot of trad climbers here are chomping at the bit to do new bolted routes in those two areas. But I could be way off base, as I'm not really plugged into that community. I'm pretty much out of the way doing my own thing.
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