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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Apr 14, 2017 - 05:07am PT
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In my last year of teaching I've been asked to do a basic course in Physics- not certified for it, but riding a variance.
John, I'm enjoying the technical arguments and your basis for design change-- you do a nice job of zeroing in on the parts of the equations that matter--Your discussion on tube length was well done. This is great nerd entertainment.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Apr 14, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
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Duece,
Yep, I am planning on shamelessly being inspired by your D4 design and use 4 side fins, but I am adding my own flair and quirks along the way rather than a full-on knock off. I have more fun being inspired rather than copying. Hence it is a Hobby Ledge, not anything beyond.
Your much earlier post for the block corner design sketch was my inspiration and starting point. I re-calculated everything based on my own existing corners, and the desire to put those on the end poles instead of on the side poles. I use 4" of pole overlap on the side poles, and 6" end joiners (3" overlap). Putting the corners on the ends allows for a large overlap, as long as I can get the side poles into the corners). Swapping the corners around lets me use two 7' pieces of bungie cord instead of 22' of bungie for a small weight savings, just stopper knots in the corners needed.
A few things on Hobby Ledge different, like a 8:1 bed tensioner using a zig-zagged piece of 3/4" thin webbing through D-rings. I am excessively obsessed with spreading tension out and other pedantic details (my inner engineer is mad about how much my inner perfectionist is missing the forest for the trees).
I am also only putting the tensioner at one end. The end tubes will stay inside the fabric tube on the other and just get folded up. I am just about done with sewing the tensioner end of the bed and will post pics soon. I am only getting 1-2 hours every 2-3 days to work on this project.
Side pole internal double butting got all glued up last night. It was shocking how much the dry fit internal reinforcement stiffened up the side pole flex, bravo sir! I was able to play with a nice A/B comparison, and wow does it work as advertised. I manged not to order 1"x0.058" material for the 4 bits of corner double butting, which is a bummer, since otherwise the frame is now done. Argh. I hate wasting money on even more shipping.
More updates and pics will show up this weekend when I should be able to get 4-5 hours during kiddo's nap times. I am likely not to finish my fly in time for our May trip, but I have an ACE and 2 A5 flys that should fit fine, but I'd rather use my own if I can.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
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First Video Review!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BTDM1heloNr/
Thanks Acro John!
he also writes:
The main points that stood out for me were:
1. Super small size and weight packed w/ fly
2.how the long sides almost pop together on their own, and the way you put end pole stows so they don't just flop around.
3. The ridiculously easy connection of end poles.
4. The 4 part suspension. Quick and stable!
5. The haul bag side zipper with interior pocket for pole... this just blew me away! I had Rebecca get it out and she has never set up a ledge before, and watching how she was able to intuitively unzip and take it out was awesome! No other major ledge out there right now sets up with such ease.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 22, 2017 - 04:53am PT
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^^ Is that "my" prototype, John?
"and watching how she was able to intuitively unzip and take it out was awesome!"
There has never been anything "intuitive" about setting up a portaledge! It has always been a perplexing struggle .... at least up until now. ;)
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walmongr
Big Wall climber
Mesa AZ
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Apr 22, 2017 - 08:32am PT
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I rented an A5 double from Babbitt's in Flagstaff in the mid 90's, for our first wall (prodigal sun). We came back from that trip and bought one! Still have it and use it to this day I am sure this new one will be awesome with 20 some years of material advancement can't wait!!!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2017 - 11:34am PT
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Yep, Pete, that's the one (prototype #3) earmarked for you, same one I used on Ozymandias last month. Still has an older version of the fly, though, good material and bomber, but we've since refined the pattern and added the door.
I just sent another demo (prototype #2, which was used in the Tarkine tree protests) to the USA with a friend who is heading to Zion, and I plan to match that one with a new fly as i hacked up its original fly as I am wont to do when I am in a creative mode (when I reinvented the Portaledge door system), and ideally we will try to get you a new fly with the door too, but right now we are also getting a few prototypes out the door for Twid Turner (proto#4) and Mike Libecki (proto #6 and #7) for their upcoming expeditions (plus we sent Marek who is still in Baffin a new fly last month).
Getting poised for our Kickstarter production...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 22, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
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It's always nice to see that people are trying new things, and are not dependent on the big companies to decide how things are done.
PTPP's comment above about making sure the suspension straps are long enough is very germane. Sometimes, you will want to hang the ledge out from the wall, and not against it. For me, that was always the best configuration, because having my feet to the wall, and my head out in space, gave me the best view of the moonlit wall.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 01:07am PT
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Pretty much all innovations come from the small companies, Think Bibler tent, small cams, lightweight packs, the list goes on.
Big companies revise and refine others' ideas, in general. They're too busy looking what the other companies are doing to truly innovate.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Apr 23, 2017 - 01:24am PT
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^^^^
they don't call it the bleeding edge for nothing...
that said two significant exceptions that come to mind are petzl and arc'teryx...
so not entirely a rule either.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 23, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
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Thanks, John!
Here's Tom on Excalibur as he describes above:
Pouring coffee from Dr. Piton's Shagadelic Big Wall Coffee Press.
Note array of Valley Giants on the right - the originals, tried and tested.
So have a look at Tom's ledge. He made this ledge, for our ascent of Excalibur, along with all the Valley Giants. They all worked.
Tom's ledge is an extreme example of what I call an "asymmetric hang". While Tom's ledge is cantilevered outwards, this same type of hang happens typically when belay bolts are too close together. Imagine Tom's ledge rotated plus 90 degrees, so the long side is against the wall as per usual. You want your ledge and your pigs side by side, but the horizontal array of anchors is too narrow.
Hence, you have to shorten up the straps on the inside against the pig, and lengthen out the straps on the outside.
Up until now, all ledges - except Fish - were totally inadequate at asymmetric hangs.
I pointed out this design flaw in ledges to Deucey, and made suggestions as to how to correct it so that the new D4 could hang asymmetrically, like Tom's.
Deucey's ledge design works, too.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
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Good idea--we might just do that. We save some weight with just one wall side but even when never set up against the wall, the air side can get beaten up over time, so that might be the go. That's feedback we also got from John V. (who recently used the D4 ledge on Zodiac and created our first video review!).
Keep the good feedback coming, but keep in mind that our objective is to keep the total weight even for the burly commercial versions less than mid seven kilo range max.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 23, 2017 - 07:48pm PT
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Great beta Pete, how about some more kissing pics;)
Please.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2017 - 11:13pm PT
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Hi Pete- Just saw your picture, for some reason it didn't come up when I last posted.
Cool picture. Did Tom ever try sleeping with the ledge in that configuration? I ask because I once designed a triangular folding ledge where the climbers slept head to wall and toes to air. But it didn't work well because there was an odd phenomena which I would call "wall side edge creep". I think because the center of balance is farther rom the point of suspension (and I suppose the placement of the middle strap), the wall side tube would creep up though the night, in effect tilting the air side of the ledge down, which would get worse as it progressed. It didn't really happen with the one-person design, but somehow with two people shifting weight it would tend to happen more readily.
It was weird, it would set up fine, but over time would "wall side edge creep". I felt the problem could be solved by tweaking the placement of the suspension points, or perhaps going with a four-point suspension, but never really pursued it further after my design contract ended prematurely after 9/11.
Still curious about that one.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 24, 2017 - 09:34am PT
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I think Blue is referring to the shagadelic Anita514....
Yes, Tom used to sleep in his ledge that way. I don't remember him tipping over forward, so somehow he addressed the Wall Side Creep.
Ha. Wall Side Creep has happened to me once or twice on my Fish ledge, when I clipped heavy bags of beer to the underside daisy on the air side of the ledge!
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Apr 30, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
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Hobby ledge is almost done, just needs webbing rash guard on the wall side D4 style 4 point suspension fins, and for the bungie cord to get put in.
Bed tensioning is an 8:1 with lots of spreading of tension along the width of the bed. The tension up on the ends of the ballistics is in-between the load spreading triangles, so in all the bed tension is spread across 9 point along the end of the bed, not just 3 as with the D4. I have had this design thought for several years, so it was nice to finally make it for real.
Poles are from Duece's hybrid diameter/thickness innovation, starting from his sharing of a block corner design with 10 piece hybrid poles. Mine are a re-calculated for 4" overlap, and shorter side poles due to placing the block corners on the short side instead of the side poles, but otherwise his design.
Center fin is a 2 point affair. The fabric weave is on a 45 angle such that the lines of tension are akin to two overlapping cable-stay bridge spans.
Overall it had a lot fewer foul ups than any of my usual projects. I had more of collision between the bed tensioners and the fin than is ideal, each got sketched out independently. Next time...
Jump-up-and-down testing is planned for after the kid's nap time.
Folding up and stowing works nice too. End poles break down and sit in the bed, then each end folds once more into the center so the whole thing can get rolled up in the straps.
Edit: Survives jump testing, and having the whole family pile into it. Pretty happy with how it turned out.
Edit 2: Added much needed attributions. Thanks for the cool ideas and inspiration Duece!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2017 - 11:06am PT
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Looks cool.
Hey Moof, I'd like to ask that if you use some of my D4 innovations, if you could reference them. I see in this case you are going for the 4/8 equalising suspension fins--it would be great if you could just add a note when you show the design that the fins are an original D4 concept.
I do like the fact that better ledges are getting created (that's always been my goal)), though I do cringe when a company uses my ideas wholesale and neglects to reference the source--in other words, just because I am sharing the ideas does not mean that I approve their use without reference. Kind of like a scientific paper, rather that a patent, I suppose, with the goal to advance climbing endeavors.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Attribution added. I have ZERO intent of doing anything commercial, but just the same you are absolutely right that your ideas and inventions should be marked as such. My 3 main tweaks/changes are the 2 point center fin, parabola cut of the D4 4 point fins, and the mechanical advantage bed tensioning system.
By the way, I used 2 layers of center fin material (36" square folded on the diagonal). I sewed them together at the strap, and the bottom 6". The result is 3 openings into the center cavity where headlamps, hats, and other trinkets can get stowed at night. On the ground with the family piled in I found it easy to get my hand in, and stuff stays where you shove it.
Real testing happens in just over 2 weeks when we throw ourselves at NA Wall.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
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Cool idea on the stow pockets, Moof. People are always asking for cup holders and stuff, and I cringe whenever having to add weight for convienience as survival trumps in my book, and light is right for survival.
But I have also been looking for a way to stow the center support fin straps when setting up and taking down the ledge, as I find it much easier if these are fully disconnected from the suspension, but then they dangle around--since they are just straps with nothing on the ends, they don't get tangled or anything, but they are a distraction, especially when windy.
Mind if we use this concept? Based on your idea idea of hollow shark fins, I initially envision just a seam taped slit big enough to reach a hand into. I'll make a proto later today. Have to think about strength aspect...
By the way, the reason i believe very important to either have no fin or a detachable fin in the center of the ledge (as in the current D4) is for when cooking with a hanging stove--you really don't want any fabric anywhere near a stove, of course. Important for expedition portaledges.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Go for it, copy anything you want. I took a 36"x36" square, folded it on the diagonal, removed a ~13" radius pie wedge from the apex, and seam taped the perimeter (I hate seam tape by the way...). The strap is detachable, for the reasons you state, but also you want to be able to fully drop the fin when not sleeping period. I have it sandwiched inside the two layers and sewn with a big box-X. You could add an elastic loop on the base of the fin strap to tuck a folded up strap into for almost no weight if you wanted, but I personally think letting it fly is just fine.
I don't sew mine into a bed-taco like you are doing, just 1" thin webbing on the back as reinforcement, and sew the fin onto the bed (has seam tape on the fin fold too). I'll probably die.
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