Maturing of climbing as a sport & the rise of gyms NYTimes

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cat t.

climber
california
Aug 26, 2015 - 11:12am PT
There were plenty of societal taboos I had to break to drop out of school and live in a campground to climb full time, and I was surrounded by like minded climbers, virtually all male.

Why do women let societal expectations limit them more than men in this regard

The societal expectations that you're bucking were very different. Yes, you had to break a societal taboo to drop out of school to live and climb, but the idea of a man who ran free and wild was definitely glorified. Parents and school advisors would prefer a different path--but society valued this poetic idea of rebellious men. Rebellious, independent women? No one glorified that.

Making a big deal out of first female ascents is sexist, and assumes that they are less able by gender than men.
Yeah, I actually kinda agree with this...at the very beginning of female inclusion in a sport I think it makes sense to celebrate female participation, but now it seems more patronizing than anything.

I think noting second ascents (as in, second ever, not second by a gender) is kinda neat though, as it brings attention to a cool area and makes me think about how many awesome obscurities are out there, waiting to be climbed again.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 26, 2015 - 11:12am PT
I didn't have much time this morning, and my internet was inaccessible to me due to a newly added member of our cat herd... but...

of the 1300 names for Yosemite Valley FA teams:

1072 are guy names
111 are gal names
114 are ambiguous (I didn't have time or the means to resolve them)

that is a breakdown of 82% guys, 9% gals and 9% unidentified

assuming the ambiguous names are in the same proportion, we could say that 91% of the FA personnel are guys and 9% are gals...

that's over the entire history of Yosemite Valley climbs.

It will be possible to see how that has changed with year of FA, but perhaps that would be tonight...


cat t.

climber
california
Aug 26, 2015 - 11:36am PT
I actually think reporting first female ascents of sport routes is important. Due to differences in biology and body, competitively, it's a different sport.
Ah, yeah, good point. I guess this gets back to the "sport" vs "adventure" distinction, though. Certainly when talking about pure sport/athleticism this makes sense.


Do we care who makes our stairs?
.....
I NEEDZ TO KNOW!!!!
Did a man design this staircase!?!? ALL MEN BAD
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/29/watch-everybody-trips-on-this-one-subway-stair/
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 26, 2015 - 11:54am PT
All .5 inch of it!
viv.r.e

climber
Sacramento
Aug 26, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
First Female Ascent would be an interesting independent topic...

+1 Also, thanks for taking the time to put together the stats Ed!

I found a solution to the LowT problem, more women climbers:

The authors report a field experiment with skateboarders that demonstrates that physical risk taking by young men increases in the presence of an attractive female. This increased risk taking leads to more successes but also more crash landings in front of a female observer. Mediational analyses suggest that this increase in risk taking is caused in part by elevated testosterone levels of men who performed in front of the attractive female.

http://spp.sagepub.com/content/1/1/57.abstract

Elevated T in the presence of women, lower T in the presence of guys. So maybe more women climbers will make the sport less tame ;P

@Daphne-This thread is like a black hole, once you go past the event horizon there's no escaping.
overwatch

climber
Aug 26, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
Hung like a button on a fur coat
Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber
City of Salt
Aug 26, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
I suppose when we start having fundraisers for aging female climbers who dedicated their lives to climbing and didn't bother having insurance or putting any money in the bank, then we will have achieved equality.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 26, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
it's a graph so it must be true.

we excluded warren harding from analysis.


LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Aug 26, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
Nita sent me an email to let me know there was high entertainment value on this thread. so I read most of it.

since its more than obvious in every sport there is .. auto racing, bull fighting and rock climbing... not to mention surfing, bmx, motocross, skiing, running, wingsuit flying etc.. that women are just as accomplished and adventurous as men, (see Ed's statistical breakdown above)...there's no apparent reason to post anything.. BUT hahaha.. I do see that Warbler mistook the increase in the number of female climbers as a dumbing down of climbing in general, when it merely reflects the response to marketing the "climbing identity and experience" that all the merchandisers conjure.

Women make money and are great targets along with men for the capturing of those dollars. All corporations try to sell an identity and/or an experience, so you have your mags, gyms, clothing lines, celebrity climbers, films, social clubs/events etc.. women bought in just like men.

so don't take it hard.. climbing is intact, as it has been since 1799 when Ms Parminter climbed in the Alps..(forgive me, Warbler, if your memory predates that)
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 26, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
This thread has sparked some interest to do more thinking regarding own motivations for FAs. Interesting stuff. Turned out that I started a thread here in Feb of 2012 (http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1753585/Castle-Domes-Kings-Canon-info);. Back than I was almost a solid 5.9 leader, on cracks. Had no friends or acquaintances that did that sort of thing yet. But that's what I wanted to do, even with the limited skills that I had.
But that's not all. Turned out PRIOR to joining a climbing gym, before I did ANY SORT of rock climbing, but after I got into hiking and general mountaineering in the January of 2010, I started a thread on summitpost.org asking if there were unclimbed peaks in CA (March 2010 - about 10 days after I summited my first peak in the Sierra, Mt. Whitney).

Here it is:
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/unclimbed-ca-peaks-t52403.html

Nooooobbbb HAHA. My screen name was dynamokiev9899. The user has been deleted, so the original post is not visible. But you could see some of my posts quoted in the thread. I guess what attracted me to climbing in general is the opportunity to figure sh#t out on my own and explore places. Exploring classic routes is interesting, but there is something special about the ability to go to a place and not know what to expect. Bust ass, try hard, not know the outcome, possibly be the first human to see some aspects of the range from different view points. There are many reasons I like this sort of thing. If it was about ego and pride, I would make sure to write multiple submissions into all sort of climbing magazines. I never do. Even though majority of ST members are much older than me, I post the content on this site because it seems I share a lot of the same values with the generation that was into this sort of climbing. Even though there are other factors that influence me and we don't see everything in the same light...
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Aug 26, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
*

Kevin, I don't want to argue with you.. you are doing a good enough job of digging your own hole .. (-;

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 26, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
I'm still at work...

I was trying to establish the fraction of all FA people who were guys and gals, given that this is a well defined group of people. That roughly 10% of all those people who have done FA's are gals is a pretty high number, higher than I thought it would be. Go gals!

The large majority of the people on that list have done one or two FAs. I think Breedlove looked at this, I have the most recent compilation and can make a table (or a plot)... but what is the point? More routes = more hardass? Maybe...

cat t.

climber
california
Aug 26, 2015 - 05:27pm PT
This thread has sparked some interest to do more thinking regarding own motivations for FAs. Interesting stuff.
This thread has made me want to go out by myself and fourth-class it up amongst the flowers and marmots.

Nooooobbbb HAHA.
But since we're laughing at our newb-selves for their earnest excitement, I just went back and found the embarrassingly sincere introductory "Hi I don't know you but can you teach me to mountain?" emails I sent to V last year (last year! I'm still a newb, guys.) after I saw him give a talk.

SO EARNEST, why this woman climbs:
I want to give you a well-thought-out answer about what my goals are, so I spent an absurd amount of time trying to flesh out what exactly it is that I want from the mountains--my apologies if I ramble too excessively! I don't have a list of classic routes that I want to climb or a set of mountains I've been eyeing (though I am sure that I will start to accrue such a list eventually). I think the fundamental motivation behind my interest in these outdoorsy pursuits is the desire to explore the environment I'm in as fully as possible. I've always been eager to explore, but until last year I lived in north and central Texas. Almost every weekend was filled with a low-key adventure; I loved camping and hiking and exploring the huge range of terrain that exists across Texas. I never encountered any climbers (though now that I've left Texas, I've become aware that there is fun climbing there!) and didn't even realize it was a "thing." Then I moved to California, and suddenly my environment was filled with places that were impossible to explore without a lot of technical knowledge. The features of the west are just so magnificent, and I want to learn whatever it is I need to be able to fully immerse myself in the Californian wild.
viv.r.e

climber
Sacramento
Aug 26, 2015 - 05:27pm PT
B-I-N-G-O. Nice thing is it should be re-useable from thread to thread.


Imagi-spray: To spray on a trip that is being planned and has not yet taken place. May also be applied to sarcastic posts on trips that do not exist outside the poster's head.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 26, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
Ed, hope you don't get busy with this sh#t instead of tonight's vinyasa at the gym!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 26, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
actually I had to work late, compounded with a left shoulder that needs a break this week...


fuzzy math?

from the positively identified:
1072 guys
112 gals

1184 guys & gals (had to get that one in)

90.5% guys
9.5% gals

116 unidentified
105 = 118 * 0.905 estimated guys in unid'd list
11 = 116 * 0.095 estimated gals in unid'd list

1072+105 = 1177 estimated guys total
112+11 = 123 estimated gals total

90.5% estimated guys (called it 91%)
9.5% estimated gals (called it 9%)

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 26, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
how about mentions?

guys are mentioned 5744 times
gals 255
unid'd 199

so of the id'd: guys are 96% of the mentioned and gals 4%

This isn't routes because there are multiple people on an FA and they all get mentioned...

the total number of routes in this list is 3118 which includes routes that we know exist but have no associated information...


Just as an aside, for gals the top three are Sue McDevitt, Lynnea Anderson and Linda Jarit.
Sue would be in the top 20 for guys and gals combined


WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
After many years warblering the Warbler comes to a conclusion .......
viv.r.e

climber
Sacramento
Aug 26, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
Now if we do this every 5-10 years based on the AAC journal, then we might get a better sense of the trends and we could make a graph.

@Jim, you're right, I"m having too much fun. Even though this has been a questionable use of time, my only regret is not including "noob," "yer gonna die," and some reference Wbraun and/or The Chief in my bingo sheet.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 27, 2015 - 09:34am PT
Too bad you couldn't join last night, Ed. Caitlin and i did yoga. We were surrounded by a bunch of gym climbers and females. Sooo lame. I guess I'll just boulder at PGSF today, maybe there will be other real men there..
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