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Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Apr 11, 2012 - 01:08am PT
Hamish - I wasn't intending to offend you personally, but if I have done so, please accept my apologies.

I've asked my question at least once before my latest post, and none of the supporters of this proposal have responded to it, including now. I have also given my reasons for my opposition to this project, which include my intense distrust for both politicians and developers who continue to hack away at a Class "A" park boundary. Class "A" parks are supposed to be held in perpetuity for future generations.

This isn't the first time these elected clowns and their drinking buddies have chipped away at the borders of one of these places because someone figured he might be able to grab a few bucks by betraying the public trust, and it won't be the last if people don't draw the line somewhere.

That's the point that I'm trying to make.

Oops - I noticed I just annoyed you, too Perry. I'm also sorry that you feel offended, but to suggest that I'm that close-minded is just plain wrong. In reality, I'm usually the guy that is the first to suggest a compromise when there's a disagreement about something, but I've seen the results when politicians start screwing around with Class "A" parks.

I've made this point before differently, but just see how biblically close-minded your bank manager is when you decide to unilaterally change the terms of your mortgage.

Yet again - where do YOU draw the line?.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 11, 2012 - 02:00am PT
But if you have even a single rational neuron in your brain, you'd be willing to agree that if the solution to world peace was to remove a bit of parkland and give it to a developer, you'd do it in a heartbeat. So the question, for all but the blindly religious, is: "Is removing park land justified in this case?"

These are the sorts of questions that philosophers and writers have been agonizing over since humans became self-aware. They're not likely to be answered here.

It's two sides of the same coin, isn't it? And no one is 'right', the compromisers or the uncompromising. Which is why we have government and laws, to allow informed, reasonably impartial decisions, in which all those with an interest in the outcome at least have a reasonable opportunity to be heard. And why maybe, just maybe, as part of the process someone ought to have at least posed the question, even if rhetorically: "Should we be considering removing land from parks, and from these parks in particular, at all?"
hamish f

Social climber
squamish
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:19am PT
Easy there Woz, you're not offending me, or, I'm guessing, anyone. This is just a bunch of friends having a debate. Nothing more. I enjoy it, gets your brain in motion a bit. I don't have to agree with my friends about everything, in fact I think it's quite healthy to have some differences. Just imagine how boring it would be if we all thought the same way.
Most people speaking out against the tram live in cities much bigger than Squampton, with more traffic lights, more cars, more noise, etc.. I get it. They hold the Chief in a special place and cherish that area for relative peace, tranquility, and that sought after "wilderness" experience. I'm still getting it.
I went to Van yesterday and saw my good friend that deals with that ant hill every day. The big city is overwhelming for us cave dwellers... way to many people, all trying to get somewhere ten minutes ago. When I'm northbound, round that corner at Murrin, and Garibaldi and the Chief come into view, a wave of relief floods over me. It's a great feeling. Back to the little town with ten traffic lights. But even Squishmish is getting pretty busy. Of course I want the old Squamish back, we were all climbing here when there weren't any traffic lights at all. And no MacBarfuls, no Fatburger (yes, that's really their name), no Taco-Hell, no Neon sign by the Apron, no Casino. You think I like that crap? Nope.
But, as I laid out early on in this debate, there are a couple million people down the road and, like it or not, they're coming. And I can't blame them one bit. I'm from Victoria and I moved here.
To get a littlle better insight into the matter, I think people need to check out Shannon Falls and hike the Backside trail during the peak summer days. It's a zoo. I personally know many people who wont hike the chief because of those crowds. It's bumper to bumper on that trail.
The tram will pass over the Park and land people way the hell up there in that old logging slash (check out the map). The vast majority of users will never even set foot in the (sacred) Park. They will simply pass over it. And looking down the road, once more trails are built, the people setting foot in the Park will be hiking or biking. Is that not getting more use out of the Park?

Sometimes I wonder if people want the Chief Park to be used or changed to a Preserve.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Apr 11, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
Thanks, Bruce and Hamish. Hamish - I see your points. While I still lived over there I was saying to any of my friends who would listen at the time that Squish had the best real estate investment potential between Vancouver and Whistler - a no-brainer, admittedly, but it appears that I was correct.

A question for you regarding these mobs ascending the backside trail - did you observe a noticeable increase in tourist numbers after the Whistler oligarchs got an obscene amount of free money from the taxpayers of B.C., including road improvements and free employee housing to host the Olympics? The reason that I'm asking this is because it makes sense to me that a proportion of people who are looking for outdoor diversion will find it both cheaper and faster to go to Squamish than continue up the road to Fat City.

Regardless, I am aware that population pressure for recreation space isn't going to go away - Courtenay has similar problems, and the solution to these problems isn't easy. We can't shoot tourists, of course, but these pressures are global, and we've got to have the courage to elect politicians who actually have the integrity to address these issues and educate the public to accept that the party is over and things aren't going to improve unless we as individuals begin to seriously consider our impact on this planet as a species.

Sermon over.

I don't have all the answers to the above, but an alternate suggestion for a gondola site I've seen mooted was Britannia Beach. I don't know the area well but, for the moment, it seems to me that there's reasons that could make this an acceptable alternative: it seems to be already developed enough to be more easily capable of absorbing a large number of visitors; there's already a tourist attraction in existence; plus it should serve as a more convenient destination for at least some of the the Vancouver tourists (and car thieves).

I'm sure there's other areas that could be considered as alternate sites, but my adamant objection to the gondola is partially based upon the fact that it impacts a Class "A" park, and that a gondola will serve to attract MORE tourists to an area that is already heavily used.

As for what the local politicians think, I won't make the mistake of slandering the current crop, but it has not been unheard of for elected civic officials to be more concerned with lining their own pockets than representing the best interests of their constituents, which is particularly easy for them to do at this level, since the voter turnout in these elections is usually even more dismal than the turnout for provincial and federal polls.

Gotta go.

Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Apr 11, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
Since the trail up the Chief is as crowded as it is, why haven't other trails been built?

It seems there is huge demand for hiking trails that clearly fit within the Park's mission and would also be in spirit with the "outdoor recreation capitol" gig promoted in the advertising. The issue of maintaining road access to the high country should also be addressed in an area-wide recreation plan.

What's up with area-wide trail planning for hikes around the Chief and high country?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Apr 12, 2012 - 12:00am PT
Bruce, I would imagine the commercial benefits from the trail up the Chief are not lost on Squamish.

Now a driving range from the top...
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 12, 2012 - 12:24am PT
It seems there is huge demand for hiking trails that clearly fit within the Park's mission and would also be in spirit with the "outdoor recreation capitol" gig promoted in the advertising. The issue of maintaining road access to the high country should also be addressed in an area-wide recreation plan.

And my uncle in Nigeria is looking for some help in gaining access to 30.7 million dollars. If you just send him your bank information, he'll transfer that amount to your account and trust you to share it with him.

The words "outdoor recreation capital" and "Parks" don't belong in the same sentence. In strictly financial terms, there's no benefit to more trails, because the mass of people using the existing trail are more than happy to be part of the mass. The only people who want more (i.e. uncrowded) trails are the scummy climbers who don't spend much anyway. And the Parks branch (whatever its formal name), isn't involved in the commercial side of things at all.

And as for "maintaining road access", maybe after my uncle splits the $30.7 million with you, you can use your $15.35 million to maintain all the out-of-use logging roads in BC. I hope so, because no one else is going to. Well, other than the logging company that has the rights to whatever timber a given road leads to.

It's easy to get starry-eyed over stuff like this. "The government ought to..." "Roads to the back country should be maintained..." "More trails will give more people access to Nirvana..." Yeah, sure, and if pigs had wings, they could fly. The reality is that nobody is going to put up money to maintain logging roads, or build trails, or do anything else on that big laundry list of wonderful things we all wish could happen.

So there's no point in saying "Instead of the gondola, why don't they..." Because there is no "they." If you don't like the gondola project as proposed, then raise your voice against it. Or push for some conditions. But don't look for alternatives, because there aren't any.

hamish f

Social climber
squamish
Apr 12, 2012 - 12:41am PT
Casper, you couldn't have hit the nail harder. Outstanding.
"They should do this, they should do that" please, give me a break.

I know we covered this stuff at length a couple weeks ago when M.H. outlined a 13 step program for Parks to get started on.
Ya, they have heaps of money and they'll get right on it. Ya.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 12, 2012 - 12:46am PT
Most of the existing hiking and biking trails are volunteer built, either decades ago or recent. That is a distinct option with this gondola thing, likely the prefered option.

I don't disagree at all. What I was saying in my last post was that expecting more trails to be built by some governmental sugar daddy was silly. On the other hand, if you and I and a few of our friends want to spend the next year of weekends building trails, well, that's something we can actually do. But I don't think it plays much of a part in this debate.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 12, 2012 - 01:21am PT
And more to the point, this would be dealing with the man, not sticking it to him,

Greg, you (and me, and Bruce, and Jim Brennan, and Hamish, and most of the other people chattering here) are the man. Look around you. Look in the mirror. Look at your tax return.

Once upon a time we were dirty hippies with no money and big stars in our eyes. We railed against "the man." Which, in our view, was anyone with money. Anyone who was part of the economic system which...

...which we're all a part of now.

Unless we all commit suicide, we're pretty much dealing with the man just by waking up and brushing our teeth.
hamish f

Social climber
squamish
Apr 12, 2012 - 10:23am PT
What Greg is saying, Bruce, is that a: if he was in charge, there wouldn't be any easement running through any classs A park. Period. And he's adding that b: if he was out voted and he had to give up the easement, it wouldn't come cheap. He's got some fancy words in there to figure out how much extra that gravel pit would have cost, had it been sold with a "gondolas are o.k." sticker. He's taken that dollar figure and pounded it into some local ammenity, at x times the number. Then he's asked the developers to build a kick-ass trail which would equal the square footage of the easement. Now that would be an incredable trail. Greg is a very capable business man and we need a brain like his sitting at the bargaining table. No doubt we'd walk away with a few great "tradsies"
I suspect there could be a little bargaining going on at some level, but not here on the super-distraction site. Where could you start with your list of swap-n-shops? It's endless. How about fifty cents/rider gets earmarked for existing (backside) trail maintenance and new trail construction? Like I said, it's endless.
I would hope the gondola guys take it upon themselves, motivated by money of course, to develop hiking and biking trails up there. Politicians love to promise the world to earn your vote, but all too often don't deliver because their promise doesn't crunch out, financially. If the proponents see some good quality trails as a means to attract another market, those trails will appear. Take a look at the bike trails which have popped up on whistler mtn over the last bunch of years. They're not building those because they promised them to someone, they're building them so they can make more money from the infrastructure they already have in place.
But ya. Greg for Premier, his brain works three times as fast as the rest of us. It's easy to get behind sometimes.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 12, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
Hold on a second. Didn't someone tell us that the fate of this provincial park is a purely local matter, and that the rest of us aren't entitled to an opinion, whatever our connection with the place? Under that criteria, gf would be disqualified from being involved.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 12, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
What is the source of that?

In any case, FOSC has been clear about where the proposed gondola would go, including a link to the developer's website. We have no control over what others might say about it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 12, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
It's hardly a secret that I'm opposed to a gondola being built there, and that I believe that the process that has been used to consider the possibility is flawed. Others share my views.

Anyone who has written to the politicians about this has done so of their own free will. Information and discussion was sent to many people, including a link to the developer's website. (Including to Bruce, Hamish, and others here.) They were encouraged to learn more, and to write if they wished. It's entirely their choice.

I'm curious, though. Just what "nuggets" are you referring to?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 12, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
I posted this a day or two ago, to silence.

ghost: But if you have even a single rational neuron in your brain, you'd be willing to agree that if the solution to world peace was to remove a bit of parkland and give it to a developer, you'd do it in a heartbeat. So the question, for all but the blindly religious, is: "Is removing park land justified in this case?"

Me: These are the sorts of questions that philosophers and writers have been agonizing over since humans became self-aware. They're not likely to be answered here.

It's two sides of the same coin, isn't it? And no one is 'right', the compromisers or the uncompromising. Which is why we have government and laws, to allow informed, reasonably impartial decisions, in which all those with an interest in the outcome at least have a reasonable opportunity to be heard. And why maybe, just maybe, as part of the process someone ought to have at least posed the question, even if rhetorically: "Should we be considering removing land from parks, and from these parks in particular, at all?"

If you can show that there's some possibility of world peace, or a cure for cancer, being found under the Chief, let's talk about it. In the meantime, let's deal with the situation as it is.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 12, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
The only thing that may be 'found' under the Chief is a gondola development, not world peace.

If some principles may sometimes need to be compromised, the question is which ones, when, why and how? And, the observe face of the coin, what of those who are too willing to compromise their principles? They may end up with no principles at all. Neither is right.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 12, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
Doesn't being prepared to defend one's principles sometimes have a place in human behaviours and values? (What you suggest as 'being an ideologue'?) For example, when we defeated the last gondola proposal in 2004, no one said we were "ideologues" or "uncompromising". When we insisted on the Chief being made into a provincial park, it was OK. And so on, and on. It's too easy to say your opponents are uncompromising ideologues, or compromisers who lack real principles, and I won't do either. Sometimes one or the other may be true, but even if so, it may not add much to the debate.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 12, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
If the solution to global warming was discovered under the Chief, we'd mine it - right Anders?

I resisted this the first time, but Mother earth has her own solution to global warming. Ice Age.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Apr 12, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
Please forward me the investors information kit for the project

tks
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 12, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
"If I were to present to you irrefutable proof coming from an expert of your choice that global warming was indeed happening and it was caused by man, and it is in our best interest to mitigate against it, would you change your mind?"

I learned a trick way back in my first-ever philosophy class that makes problems like this even simpler. If you want to test the logic of someone's position, you don't have to construct anything as complicated as you did with The Chief, calling in imaginary experts and such, just ask them what evidence would make them change their mind. If they say there is nothing that could make them do that, then they're talking religion, and you might as well terminate the conversation.

In the current case...

If: "There is nothing that would ever make me change my mind about removing land from Class A Parks"

Then: End of conversation. Logical argument is not possible.

Again, I'm not saying there should be a gondola, but I do note that every single one of those who has said something in favor of it has also made clear that their support is conditional and subject to change if they are presented with compelling evidence.

What I hear from those opposed is that there is no circumstance under which they would change their minds. Which, to me at least, really does sound like "Cuz it says so in the bible."
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